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   Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione

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  •  blackbart
      blackbart
Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione
#1
Dubito ormai di tutto
Iscritto il: 13/10/2007
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Ste_79:

Citazione:
Non c'è inflazione all'aumento della massa monetaria se parimenti aumentano i beni e servizi.


Questo l'avevo scritto pure io. E' evidente. Se ci sono più transazioni, serviranno più soldi.
Ma non parlerei di beni e servizi ma di produzione ed esportazioni.

Citazione:
Quindi, in un periodo in cui non manca nulla tranne il denaro spendibile, il problema è la quantità di denaro in circolazione.


Di nuovo. La mancanza di denaro è la conseguenza della mancanza di lavoro, non la causa.
La causa sono le tasse da record mondiale, specialmente sul lavoro, che gravano sulle imprese. Se pigi sull'acceleratore con il freno a mano tirato, non vai da nessuna parte e bruci le gomme.
Perchè tutte queste tasse? Ovvio. Per pagare centinaia di miliardi di sprechi che, come dice il nome stesso, non producono nulla se non altro debito.

Citazione:
Ci sono due modi che lo stato può usare per finanziare qualcosa: usare i soldi delle tasse o stampare moneta. Non ne esistono altri.


Può chiedere prestiti ai privati.

Citazione:
Se il secondo modo è stato tolto allo stato ne rimane solo uno, che evidentemente non è sufficente a coprire la necessità delle persone.
Se emettere moneta è permesso soltanto alle banche, è altrettanto evidente che questo denaro verrà impiegato per gli scopi del grande capitale, non certo per scopi sociali.


Ah... gli scopi sociali. Va benissimo che lo Stato si occupi di scopi sociali (tipo spendere 40 miliardi all'anno in spese militari) perchè in caso contrario non servirebbe a nulla.
Il problema è che senza profitto non si va da nessuna parte.

Citazione:
Siccome siamo agli antipodi non pretendo che tu capisca una parola di quanto dico.


Il dramma è che capisco fin troppo bene quello che pensi di sapere e dove vuoi andare a parare.
Infatti:

Citazione:
Se lo stato emettesse una sua moneta potrebbe all'istante abbassare le tasse agli imprenditori, alzare le pensioni, abbassare le tasse dei lavoratori. Questo significa maggior denaro in circolazione.


Ovviamente ci mancherebbe eliminare gli sprechi e ottenere lo stesso risultato.
No. La soluzione è stampare moneta, magari da accreditare direttamente sul "conto corrente" statale.
Ma abbiamo appena finito di dire che, in mancanza di beni e servizi, crei inflazione!
E come fai ad aumentare la produzione se permangono gli sprechi?
Come fai a pensare che una riduzione immediata delle tasse, produca immediatamente un incremento della produzione? Una azienda, chiusa perchè strozzata dal pizzo statale, riapre in 24h?
Nel frattempo - transitorio che potrebbe durare mesi o anni - hai inflazione, tassa utile a pagare gli sprechi! Aumenta il costo di importazione, aggravando le tasse sulle imprese.
Questo è il costo!

Citazione:
I piccoli negozi in cui ora non si va a comprare perchè si cerca il prezzo più basso, potrebbero vendere di più


I piccoli negoazianti sarebbero rovinati perchè nulla si dice dell'effetto della svalutazione.

Citazione:
Non sono nella condizione di alzare i prezzi come tu sostieni sulla base della tua comprensione del fenomeno inflattivo, ora i negozi chidono per mancanza di clienti


E chi ha parlato di inflazione? Siamo in un periodo post-recessivo quindi semmai c'è deflazione. Che in termini pratici, lo spiego per la decima volta, è il "negoziante" (o la società) che dice "piuttosto che chiudere baracca e burattini, riduco i miei margini finchè ce la faccio". Poi alla fine chiude.
Ma qual'è la differenza maggiore rispetto ad altri paesi europei? Solo la mancanza di clienti? No. E' la tassazione reale, cazzo!

Citazione:
Invece, cosa succede ora? questo meccanismo si inceppa perchè l'obbligo di pagare interessi, l'obbligo di mantenere il pareggio di bilancio, il 3% di sto cazzo e compagnia bella (perdona la piccola definizione colorita) impongono un alta tassazzione per riapagare gli interessi, l'impossibilità di spesa pubblica e quindi si va atogliere moneta dal circuito economico, producendo esattamente il contrario di quello che ho descritto sopra.


Uno: Gli "alti interessi" pesano meno del 10% sulla spesa pubblica quindi meno degli sprechi che, anche in situazione di crisi, continuano a permanere anzi a peggiorare.
Due: Se fai un debito lo ripaghi.
Ma la cosa più importante è questa.
E' perfettamente lecito ritenere che se lo Stato si trovasse - tramite prestiti, tasse, emissione di banconote del Monopoli, ecc... - con più disponibilità finanziarie farebbe quello che gli riesce meglio: sperpererebbe.
Lo fa oggi che l'Italia è alla canna del gas, lo farebbe domani se potesse accreditarsi i soldi dal nulla. E tali sprechi avrebbero un costo molto maggiore di quello attuale perchè produrrebbero un aumento esponenziale del "debito". Debito inteso come un impoverimento della società. Impoverimento misurabile, anche ma non solo, come riduzione del potere di acquisto.

Citazione:
Se non lo sai, ora, chiudono le aziende non per mancanza di commesse ma per mancanza di liquidità. Ti sfido a dimostrare il contrario.


Ancora?.
Chiudono per le tasse!!!
Inviato il: 12/3/2014 17:44
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     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/2/2014 16:51
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                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 22/3/2014 0:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 22/3/2014 0:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 22/3/2014 0:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 22/3/2014 1:13
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 25/3/2014 17:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ohmygod 25/3/2014 20:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 26/3/2014 0:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 26/3/2014 22:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione stacchio 27/3/2014 13:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/3/2014 14:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 29/3/2014 8:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 29/3/2014 21:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 29/3/2014 21:22
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 13/3/2014 18:07
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 13/3/2014 18:41
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 13/3/2014 18:47
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 13/3/2014 19:18
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 13/3/2014 22:44
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 14/3/2014 1:25
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 23:08
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 15/3/2014 19:56
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 15/3/2014 21:10
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 13/3/2014 22:37
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 14/3/2014 11:23
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 14/3/2014 11:59
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 22:42
                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 12/3/2014 1:48
                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 13/3/2014 10:45
                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 13/3/2014 12:13
                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 10/3/2014 20:58
                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 10/3/2014 22:03
                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 10/3/2014 22:38
                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 10/3/2014 22:51
                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 10/3/2014 23:26
                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 10/3/2014 23:44
                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 11/3/2014 0:04
                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 11/3/2014 23:56
                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 12/3/2014 0:07
                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 12/3/2014 1:56
                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 13/3/2014 20:28
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 13/3/2014 21:10
                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 13/3/2014 21:53
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 13/3/2014 22:19
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 13/3/2014 21:42
                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 21:52
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/3/2014 0:02
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 16/3/2014 9:13
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 16/3/2014 16:23
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/3/2014 12:19
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 15:16
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 15:25
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 15:31
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/3/2014 16:23
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 17/3/2014 15:59
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 17/3/2014 16:26
                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 17/3/2014 16:58
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 17:30
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/3/2014 17:47
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 17:58
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 14/3/2014 1:01
                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 22:20
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 4/3/2014 17:07
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 17:18
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 4/3/2014 19:59
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 9:34
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 6/3/2014 17:44
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 6/3/2014 18:30
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 6/3/2014 18:38
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 6/3/2014 19:20
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 6/3/2014 19:48
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 6/3/2014 19:58
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 6/3/2014 20:21
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 7/3/2014 8:32
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 11:10
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 8/3/2014 13:51
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 8/3/2014 14:15
                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/3/2014 14:49
                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione earlturner 8/3/2014 15:39
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 7/3/2014 11:11
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 16:04
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 3/3/2014 17:30
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 15:51
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 3/3/2014 16:05
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 17:42
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 3/3/2014 18:04
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 18:48
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 18:30
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 19:01
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 19:29
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 13:07
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 13:18
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 12:05
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 13:27
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 14:31
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 14:52
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 15:08
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 15:06
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 15:07
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 15:10
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 2/3/2014 17:32
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:19
                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:32
                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:40
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 3/3/2014 20:47
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 20:52
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:56
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 21:02
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 21:32
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 10:02
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 22:30
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 23:34
                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 12:53
                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 4/3/2014 13:08
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 14:14
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 4/3/2014 16:14
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 16:27
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 4/3/2014 20:14
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 21:03
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 4/3/2014 21:23
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 5/3/2014 8:22
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 5/3/2014 12:47
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 5/3/2014 13:16
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 5/3/2014 13:34
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 5/3/2014 13:39
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 5/3/2014 14:56
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 5/3/2014 14:59
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 5/3/2014 15:52
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione yarebon 5/3/2014 16:54
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 5/3/2014 17:48
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 5/3/2014 19:14
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione yarebon 5/3/2014 21:37
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 6/3/2014 10:07
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 5/3/2014 21:59
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 6/3/2014 10:52
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 12:51
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:30
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 13:45
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:50
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:05
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:46
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 13:51
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:53
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:25
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:27
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:32
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 14:39
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:46
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 15:19
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/3/2014 16:43
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 16:58
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 17:10
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 1:52
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 11:31
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 13:02
                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 13:14
                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 14:41
                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:49
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 14:54
                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:57
                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 17:51
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 18:04
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 8/3/2014 1:05
                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 2:27
                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 8/3/2014 10:07
                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 11:03
                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 8/3/2014 11:06
                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/3/2014 11:28
                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 11:32
                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 8/3/2014 11:36
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 7/3/2014 14:58
                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/3/2014 13:28
                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/3/2014 13:33
                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 13:42
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/3/2014 13:55
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:18
                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 14:21
                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:35
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/3/2014 11:38
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 12:21
                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 8/3/2014 12:36
                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:43
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 14:47
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:54
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Keevan 8/3/2014 11:31
                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 14:31
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 13:23
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 5/3/2014 9:12
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 5/3/2014 10:27
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 16:25
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 27/2/2014 21:24
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 1/3/2014 17:59
     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione black 7/3/2014 15:31
       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ohmygod 7/3/2014 15:34
       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 15:59
         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 7/3/2014 16:15
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 17:53
     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 31/3/2014 17:29
       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 31/3/2014 18:17
         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 31/3/2014 21:12
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 31/3/2014 21:39
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 31/3/2014 23:41
               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 16:08
                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 1/4/2014 17:24
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 31/3/2014 23:38
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 1/4/2014 15:27
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 0:30
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 1/4/2014 13:39
               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 17:54
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 1/4/2014 15:16
               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 18:07
                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 18:43
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 1/4/2014 19:02
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 19:03
                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 19:31
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/4/2014 10:22
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 2/4/2014 13:09
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/4/2014 13:42
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 13:53
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 14:49
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 2/4/2014 15:45
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 2/4/2014 16:10
                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 2/4/2014 16:25
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 2/4/2014 17:43
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 17:54
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 2/4/2014 18:36
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 18:54
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 2/4/2014 17:51
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/4/2014 17:56
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 14/4/2014 10:27
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 10:28
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 10:39
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 10:39
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 10:45
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 10:56
                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 11:15
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 11:50
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 13:52
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 15/4/2014 14:03
                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 16/4/2014 15:23
                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/4/2014 16:52
                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 16/4/2014 17:23
                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:26
                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:48
                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 16/4/2014 18:55
                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/4/2014 21:01
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 16/4/2014 23:13
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 1:07
                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 9:09
                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 12:44
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 12:54
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 13:21
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 14:08
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/4/2014 14:23
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 14:35
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 14:43
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 13:54
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 14:01
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 14:28
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 17/4/2014 16:24
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 16:42
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 17/4/2014 17:22
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 17:36
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 17:42
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 17:51
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 17:57
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 17/4/2014 18:22
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 17/4/2014 21:25
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 17/4/2014 21:30
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 17/4/2014 21:35
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 15:37
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 15:40
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 18/4/2014 16:45
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 18/4/2014 16:57
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 18/4/2014 16:53
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 20:03
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 20:42
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 20:48
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 21:00
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 21:06
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 21:15
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                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 22/4/2014 12:08
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 16:54
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                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/4/2014 20:55
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:19
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione funky1 15/4/2014 12:08
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 14:03
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione horselover 15/4/2014 16:03
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                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 22/4/2014 12:34
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 22/4/2014 13:02
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 22/4/2014 15:40
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                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 22/4/2014 20:43
                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 22/4/2014 23:39
                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 23/4/2014 8:35
                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 23/4/2014 11:26
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 23/4/2014 11:32
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                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 24/4/2014 10:13
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 16:36
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 24/4/2014 18:12
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 18:36
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 24/4/2014 18:42
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 21:52
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 24/4/2014 22:10
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 23:37
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 25/4/2014 12:37
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 25/4/2014 12:43
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 25/4/2014 15:01
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 25/4/2014 15:51
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 26/4/2014 9:54
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 26/4/2014 13:06
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 26/4/2014 14:43
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 26/4/2014 16:17
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 26/4/2014 16:42
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 26/4/2014 17:42
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 27/4/2014 0:50
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 27/4/2014 10:51
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 27/4/2014 11:32
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 27/4/2014 11:42
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                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 27/4/2014 14:51
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 27/4/2014 14:59
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 27/4/2014 16:36
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 28/4/2014 21:02
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 30/4/2014 17:14
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                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ivan 30/4/2014 18:39
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 1/5/2014 11:45
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 1/5/2014 21:47
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                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 4/5/2014 10:54
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                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 4/5/2014 12:03
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                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 5/5/2014 22:19
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/5/2014 1:55
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                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/5/2014 18:27
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                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/5/2014 19:38
                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/5/2014 20:13
                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 6/5/2014 20:52
                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/5/2014 11:39
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                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/5/2014 23:28
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                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 8/5/2014 11:27
                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 24/5/2014 14:13
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/5/2014 20:53
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                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 25/5/2014 11:22
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 29/5/2014 21:51
                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione horselover 29/5/2014 22:20
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 25/5/2014 11:27
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                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 27/5/2014 23:00
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 27/5/2014 19:32
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                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 21/5/2014 23:23
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 22/5/2014 1:17
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                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 1/6/2014 20:43
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                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 6/5/2014 11:44
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 10:49
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                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 11:33
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 11:44
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 12:02
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 28/4/2014 15:26
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 28/4/2014 21:31
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 29/4/2014 11:11
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                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 30/4/2014 16:49
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 28/4/2014 14:59
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 16:19
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 17:38
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 18:02
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 18:51
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 19:51
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 30/4/2014 18:26
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 1/5/2014 8:44
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/5/2014 8:44
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 2/5/2014 12:28
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/5/2014 13:33
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 2/5/2014 16:18
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/5/2014 20:19
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/5/2014 17:35
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 26/4/2014 12:44
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 26/4/2014 16:09
                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 22/4/2014 23:11
                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 22/5/2014 16:24
                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 22/5/2014 16:51
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:03
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 2/4/2014 18:34
                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 2/4/2014 20:00
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 20:21
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 2/4/2014 20:29
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ivan 3/4/2014 3:31
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 5/4/2014 14:59
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 5/4/2014 18:13
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/4/2014 16:49
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/4/2014 14:13
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/4/2014 16:07
                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/4/2014 22:26
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/4/2014 23:03
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 7/4/2014 17:24
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 3/4/2014 2:04
                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 19:00
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 19:12
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