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ATTENZIONE: Chiunque voglia scrivere su Luogocomune è pregato di leggere prima QUESTO AVVISO (aggiornato 01.11.07)



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   Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione

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  •  anakyn
      anakyn
Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione
#1
Dubito ormai di tutto
Iscritto il: 8/1/2010
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Messaggi: 1428
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Citazione:

blackbart ha scritto:
l'inflazione è per definizione l'eccesso di liquidità!


No.
Senti, rifacciamoci alla definizione di Wikipedia, ok?

L'inflazione è l'aumento generalizzato dei prezzi.

Che l'eccesso di liquidità si traduca automaticamente in inflazione non lo dice nessuna "definizione", lo dice piuttosto la teoria monetarista, teoria soggetto di innumerevoli critiche.

QUI una critica piuttosto articolata al Monetarismo.

Se tu sei un monetarista, benissimo.
Anche Draghi, Monti e gli attuali tecnocrati europei lo sono, o forse fingono di esserlo perchè gli conviene.

Da qui a farne una definizione economica ce ne passa.



Citazione:

blackbart ha scritto:

Tuttavia anche l'economia deve essere basata su modelli in grado di spiegare e/o prevedere, almeno qualitativamente, la realtà delle cose. Se tali modelli falliscono, si buttano nel cesso.


D'accordissimo: liberismo e mercantilismo attendono solo lo sciacquone della storia.



Citazione:

blackbart ha scritto:

E secondo te perchè?


Ti risulta che il Piano Marshall sia durato sino agli anni '60 e '70 compresi?

Dal tuo stesso link si evince che terminò nel 1951, ma se anche gli concediamo qualche anno in più i conti non tornano lo stesso, visto che l'Italia ha continuato a sviluppare il suo tessuto produttivo ben oltre.



Citazione:

blackbart ha scritto:

In ogni caso le tue obiezioni sono del tutto fuori luogo.
Non ho mai affermato che lo Stato non sia in grado di intervenire per finanziare le aziende private e pubbliche (oggi per fortuna o sfortuna gli aiuti di stato sono vietati). Ma per farlo deve spendere i soldi delle tasse ed eventualmente indebitarsi.
Il debito non è il male assoluto ma lo diventa se porta ad un peggioramento della situazione!


Temo che le mie obiezioni non siano fuori luogo per nulla, specialmente se ritieni che la funzione primaria delle tasse sia quella di finanziare la spesa pubblica (oddio, nel sistema dell'euro effettivamente la funzione è quella, con la sovranità monetaria no).

Comunque, due cose:
- a proposito di "aiuti di Stato vietati", lo sapevi che la Germania ad inizio millennio ha di fatto usato fornito un aiuto di Stato pari al 20% del proprio debito/PIL alle proprie aziende, finanziando con spesa pubblica quella rete di ammortizzatori sociali che prende il nome di riforma Hartz IV?
In altri termini, lo sapevi che in Eurozona siamo tutti uguali, ma qualcuno è più uguale degli altri?
- che significa "peggioramento della situazione" in rapporto al debito? E' una formulazione abbastanza vaga e può voler dire tutto e il contrario di tutto.



Citazione:

blackbart ha scritto:

Citazione:
Guarda che ad essere in discesa, e da parecchi anni non dall'altroieri, è l'occupazione, proprio perchè è calata l'offerta e le aziende o chiudono, o sopravvivono disfandosi dei lavoratori in eccesso rispetto alle loro ridotte esigenze produttive.


Sì certo... è nato prima l'uovo o la gallina?
E' ovvio che se la gente non ha soldi non compra e le aziende che producono sono costrette a chiudere, portando sul lungo periodo ad una riduzione dell'offerta (in valore assoluto non relativo!).


A proposito di galline ed ovvietà, basta guardare i dati per capire con che sequenza si sono evoluti calo della domanda, conseguente calo dell'offerta e conseguente stagnazione/calo dei prezzi.



Citazione:

blackbart ha scritto:

Però ho come l'impressione che confondi la causa principale con gli effetti.

La causa è che, per foraggiare lo spreco pubblico, la tassazione sulle imprese è stata portata a livelli folli.


Non direi.

A proposito di "spreco pubblico", è utile ricordare che la spesa pubblica in rapporto al PIL in Italia non è sopra la media europea, ed anzi è inferiore a quella di Stati "virtuosi" quali Austria, Belgio e Finlandia.




La spesa pubblica primaria (cioè quella depurata dagli interessi sul debito), poi, ci vede ancora più in basso nel confronto con gli altri Stati dell'Eurozona.




L'Italia colleziona avanzi primari dall'inizio degli anni '90 (se non ricordo male), cioè è da vent'anni che lo Stato spende MENO di quanto incassi con le tasse.


Se si parla di spesa, sarebbe ora di:
- distinguere fra spesa primaria e spesa per interessi
- una volta operata la distinzione, capire che lo "spreco pubblico" riguarda di fatto la spesa per interessi, visto che quella primaria è in linea col resto dell'Europa



Citazione:

blackbart ha scritto:

Citazione:
Il calo dei prezzi, cioè la deflazione di cui parli, è notizia relativamente recente, nonchè conseguente al calo dell'offerta.


Ho la certezza che confondi la causa con l'effetto!
Se in un mercato riduci l'offerta i prezzi dovrebbero alzarsi!!!


Dici che confondo causa ed effetto?
Non è che con tutto questo parlare di offerta ti stai dimenticando della domanda?

Se in un mercato l'offerta cala rispetto alla domanda, allora sì che i prezzi si alzano.

Se invece la domanda continua a calare anch'essa, i prezzi non si alzano.
Inviato il: 9/3/2014 22:07
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     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/2/2014 16:51
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                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 22/3/2014 0:27
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                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 22/3/2014 0:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 22/3/2014 0:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 22/3/2014 1:13
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 25/3/2014 17:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ohmygod 25/3/2014 20:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 26/3/2014 0:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 26/3/2014 22:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione stacchio 27/3/2014 13:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/3/2014 14:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 29/3/2014 8:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 29/3/2014 21:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 29/3/2014 21:22
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 13/3/2014 18:07
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 13/3/2014 18:41
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 13/3/2014 18:47
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 13/3/2014 19:18
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 13/3/2014 22:44
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 14/3/2014 1:25
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 23:08
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 15/3/2014 19:56
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 15/3/2014 21:10
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 13/3/2014 22:37
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 14/3/2014 11:23
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 14/3/2014 11:59
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 22:42
                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 12/3/2014 1:48
                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 13/3/2014 10:45
                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 13/3/2014 12:13
                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 10/3/2014 20:58
                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 10/3/2014 22:03
                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 10/3/2014 22:38
                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 10/3/2014 22:51
                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 10/3/2014 23:26
                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 10/3/2014 23:44
                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 11/3/2014 0:04
                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 11/3/2014 23:56
                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 12/3/2014 0:07
                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 12/3/2014 1:56
                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 13/3/2014 20:28
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 13/3/2014 21:10
                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 13/3/2014 21:53
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 13/3/2014 22:19
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 13/3/2014 21:42
                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 21:52
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/3/2014 0:02
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 16/3/2014 9:13
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 16/3/2014 16:23
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/3/2014 12:19
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 15:16
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 15:25
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 15:31
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/3/2014 16:23
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 17/3/2014 15:59
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 17/3/2014 16:26
                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 17/3/2014 16:58
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 17:30
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/3/2014 17:47
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/3/2014 17:58
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 14/3/2014 1:01
                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 14/3/2014 22:20
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 4/3/2014 17:07
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 17:18
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 4/3/2014 19:59
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 9:34
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 6/3/2014 17:44
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 6/3/2014 18:30
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 6/3/2014 18:38
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 6/3/2014 19:20
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 6/3/2014 19:48
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 6/3/2014 19:58
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 6/3/2014 20:21
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 7/3/2014 8:32
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 11:10
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 8/3/2014 13:51
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 8/3/2014 14:15
                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/3/2014 14:49
                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione earlturner 8/3/2014 15:39
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 7/3/2014 11:11
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 16:04
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 3/3/2014 17:30
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 15:51
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 3/3/2014 16:05
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 17:42
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 3/3/2014 18:04
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 18:48
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 18:30
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 19:01
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 19:29
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 3/3/2014 13:07
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 13:18
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 12:05
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 13:27
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 14:31
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 14:52
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 15:08
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 15:06
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 15:07
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 3/3/2014 15:10
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 2/3/2014 17:32
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:19
                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:32
                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:40
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 3/3/2014 20:47
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 20:52
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 20:56
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 3/3/2014 21:02
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 21:32
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 10:02
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/3/2014 22:30
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 3/3/2014 23:34
                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 12:53
                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 4/3/2014 13:08
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 4/3/2014 14:14
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 4/3/2014 16:14
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 16:27
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 4/3/2014 20:14
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 21:03
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 4/3/2014 21:23
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 5/3/2014 8:22
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 5/3/2014 12:47
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 5/3/2014 13:16
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 5/3/2014 13:34
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 5/3/2014 13:39
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 5/3/2014 14:56
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 5/3/2014 14:59
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 5/3/2014 15:52
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione yarebon 5/3/2014 16:54
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 5/3/2014 17:48
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 5/3/2014 19:14
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione yarebon 5/3/2014 21:37
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 6/3/2014 10:07
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 5/3/2014 21:59
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 6/3/2014 10:52
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 12:51
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:30
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 13:45
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:50
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:05
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:46
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 13:51
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 13:53
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:25
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:27
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:32
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 6/3/2014 14:39
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 14:46
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 15:19
                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/3/2014 16:43
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 16:58
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/3/2014 17:10
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 1:52
                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 11:31
                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 13:02
                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 13:14
                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 14:41
                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:49
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 14:54
                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:57
                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 17:51
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 18:04
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 8/3/2014 1:05
                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 2:27
                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 8/3/2014 10:07
                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 11:03
                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 8/3/2014 11:06
                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/3/2014 11:28
                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 11:32
                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 8/3/2014 11:36
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 7/3/2014 14:58
                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/3/2014 13:28
                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/3/2014 13:33
                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 13:42
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/3/2014 13:55
                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:18
                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 14:21
                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:35
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/3/2014 11:38
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/3/2014 12:21
                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 8/3/2014 12:36
                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:43
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/3/2014 14:47
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 14:54
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Keevan 8/3/2014 11:31
                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 14:31
                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/3/2014 13:23
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 5/3/2014 9:12
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 5/3/2014 10:27
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione blackbart 4/3/2014 16:25
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Hito 27/2/2014 21:24
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 1/3/2014 17:59
     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione black 7/3/2014 15:31
       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ohmygod 7/3/2014 15:34
       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 15:59
         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 7/3/2014 16:15
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/3/2014 17:53
     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 31/3/2014 17:29
       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 31/3/2014 18:17
         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 31/3/2014 21:12
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 31/3/2014 21:39
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 31/3/2014 23:41
               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 16:08
                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 1/4/2014 17:24
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 31/3/2014 23:38
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 1/4/2014 15:27
           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 0:30
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 1/4/2014 13:39
               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 17:54
             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 1/4/2014 15:16
               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 18:07
                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 18:43
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 1/4/2014 19:02
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 19:03
                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 19:31
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/4/2014 10:22
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 2/4/2014 13:09
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/4/2014 13:42
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 13:53
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 14:49
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 2/4/2014 15:45
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 2/4/2014 16:10
                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 2/4/2014 16:25
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 2/4/2014 17:43
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 17:54
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 2/4/2014 18:36
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 18:54
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 2/4/2014 17:51
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/4/2014 17:56
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 14/4/2014 10:27
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 10:28
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 10:39
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 10:39
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 10:45
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 10:56
                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 11:15
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 15/4/2014 11:50
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 13:52
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 15/4/2014 14:03
                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 16/4/2014 15:23
                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/4/2014 16:52
                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 16/4/2014 17:23
                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:26
                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:48
                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 16/4/2014 18:55
                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/4/2014 21:01
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 16/4/2014 23:13
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 1:07
                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 9:09
                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 12:44
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 12:54
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 13:21
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 14:08
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 17/4/2014 14:23
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 14:35
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 14:43
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 13:54
                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 14:01
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 14:28
                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 17/4/2014 16:24
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 16:42
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 17/4/2014 17:22
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 17:36
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 17:42
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 17/4/2014 17:51
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 17/4/2014 17:57
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 17/4/2014 18:22
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 17/4/2014 21:25
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 17/4/2014 21:30
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 17/4/2014 21:35
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 15:37
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 15:40
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 18/4/2014 16:45
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 18/4/2014 16:57
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 18/4/2014 16:53
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 20:03
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 20:42
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 20:48
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 21:00
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 21:06
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 18/4/2014 21:15
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 18/4/2014 23:09
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 22/4/2014 12:08
                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 17/4/2014 16:54
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 17/4/2014 17:32
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                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 17/4/2014 0:03
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                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 16/4/2014 20:55
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:19
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione funky1 15/4/2014 12:08
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 15/4/2014 14:03
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione horselover 15/4/2014 16:03
                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 15/4/2014 16:15
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 22/4/2014 12:34
                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 22/4/2014 13:02
                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 22/4/2014 15:40
                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 22/4/2014 16:17
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                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 22/4/2014 19:26
                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 22/4/2014 20:43
                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 22/4/2014 23:39
                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 23/4/2014 8:35
                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 23/4/2014 11:26
                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 23/4/2014 11:32
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                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 24/4/2014 10:13
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 16:36
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione toussaint 24/4/2014 18:12
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 18:36
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 24/4/2014 18:42
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 21:52
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 24/4/2014 22:10
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/4/2014 23:37
                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 25/4/2014 12:37
                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 25/4/2014 12:43
                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 25/4/2014 15:01
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 25/4/2014 15:51
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 26/4/2014 9:54
                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 26/4/2014 13:06
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 26/4/2014 14:43
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 26/4/2014 16:17
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 26/4/2014 16:42
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 26/4/2014 17:42
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 27/4/2014 0:50
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 27/4/2014 10:51
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 27/4/2014 11:32
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 27/4/2014 11:42
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                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 27/4/2014 14:51
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione namaste10 27/4/2014 14:59
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 27/4/2014 16:36
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 28/4/2014 21:02
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 30/4/2014 17:14
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                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ivan 30/4/2014 18:39
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 1/5/2014 11:45
                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 1/5/2014 21:47
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                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 4/5/2014 10:54
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                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 4/5/2014 12:03
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                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 5/5/2014 22:19
                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/5/2014 1:55
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 6/5/2014 8:25
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                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/5/2014 13:39
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                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/5/2014 18:27
                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 6/5/2014 18:51
                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/5/2014 19:38
                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 6/5/2014 20:13
                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 6/5/2014 20:52
                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/5/2014 11:39
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                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/5/2014 13:28
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                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 7/5/2014 15:04
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                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/5/2014 18:11
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                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 7/5/2014 21:49
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 7/5/2014 23:28
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 8/5/2014 11:17
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 8/5/2014 11:27
                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 24/5/2014 14:13
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 24/5/2014 20:53
                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 25/5/2014 10:31
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 25/5/2014 11:22
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 29/5/2014 21:51
                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione horselover 29/5/2014 22:20
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 25/5/2014 11:27
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 25/5/2014 12:32
                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 25/5/2014 13:12
                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 27/5/2014 23:00
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 27/5/2014 19:32
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                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 10/5/2014 15:33
                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 21/5/2014 23:23
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 22/5/2014 1:17
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                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 1/6/2014 20:43
                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione horselover 1/6/2014 22:41
                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 2/6/2014 11:25
                                                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione perspicace 6/5/2014 11:44
                                                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 10:49
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 11:15
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 11:33
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 11:44
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 12:02
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 28/4/2014 15:26
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 28/4/2014 21:31
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 29/4/2014 11:11
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 29/4/2014 21:02
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 30/4/2014 16:49
                                                                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 28/4/2014 14:59
                                                                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 16:19
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 17:38
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 18:02
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 28/4/2014 18:51
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 28/4/2014 19:51
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 30/4/2014 18:26
                                                                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 1/5/2014 8:44
                                                                                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/5/2014 8:44
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 2/5/2014 12:28
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/5/2014 13:33
                                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione DaemonZC 2/5/2014 16:18
                                                                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 2/5/2014 20:19
                                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 3/5/2014 17:35
                                                                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 26/4/2014 12:44
                                                                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 26/4/2014 16:09
                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Ste_79 22/4/2014 23:11
                                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 22/5/2014 16:24
                                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 22/5/2014 16:51
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 16/4/2014 18:03
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione infosauro 2/4/2014 18:34
                     Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 2/4/2014 20:00
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 2/4/2014 20:21
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Merio 2/4/2014 20:29
                         Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione ivan 3/4/2014 3:31
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 5/4/2014 14:59
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 5/4/2014 18:13
                           Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 6/4/2014 16:49
                             Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/4/2014 14:13
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Nomit 7/4/2014 16:07
                                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 7/4/2014 22:26
                                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 8/4/2014 23:03
                               Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione franco8 7/4/2014 17:24
                       Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione anakyn 3/4/2014 2:04
                 Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Mande 1/4/2014 19:00
                   Re: Euro o Lira: Riassunto discussione Sertes 1/4/2014 19:12
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