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   Archeologia alternativa

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Re: Archeologia alternativa
#1
Ho qualche dubbio
Iscritto il: 29/1/2007
Da Roma
Messaggi: 63
Offline
Citazione:
Citazione:
Non hai forse volutamente lasciato intendere proprio questo? "fin quasi il 50°
parallelo"..interessante....quindi? volevi forse affermare allora che da lì in poi Piri Reis è
andato a fantasia?


Tristero:.........Quello che intendevo dire era dunque che la zona del SUDAMERICA che si trova tra il 50° parallelo e la Terra del Fuoco toccata da Magellano poteva essere stata raggiunta anche da altri all'epoca in cui Piri Reis disegnava la sua carta. Raggiunta e descritta da quei navigatori portoghesi sui racconti dei quali Piri Reis dichiara di essersi basato per redigere la sua carta.............

Forse non te ne sei accorto ma stai confermando i miei punti interrogativi.

Citazione:
E' probabile che pure la carta di Piri Reis si presentasse così, visto che rappresentava tutto il mondo conosciuto o immaginato all'epoca. Perché proprio questa è la mia ipotesi: che Piri Reis nella parte inferiore della sua "mappa mundi" abbia rappresentato solo l'estremità inferiore del Sudamerica, ancora semisconosciuto all'epoca perché solo da poco raggiunto dagli esploratori, e che si ipotizzava proseguisse verso est fino ai confini dell'Asia. E per questo è stato rappresentato in modo approssimativo.

Se sei d'accordo con me che fino ad allora nessuno aveva scoperto l'Antartide permettimi allora di spiegarti meglio cosa hai scritto:
1) Piri Reis rappresentò tutto il mondo conosciuto o immaginato all'epoca (e così hai già risposto affermativamente alle mie domande). Piri Reis avrebbe tracciato la mappa del sud America fino a dove era conosciuta
2) Ma siccome l'estremità inferiore dell'america latina era semisconosciuta l'ammiraglio avrebbe poi proceduto in maniera “approssimativa”
Da ciò devo concludere che secondo te la parte geografica del globo non ancora esplorata (la zona che riguarda Antartide) la disegnò tirando in aria una monetina...

Citazione:
Citazione:
devo implicitamente ritenere che per Tristero un intero comando dell'aeronautica
USA era formato da imbecilli. Interessante. Ecco cosa c'era scritto esattamente nel
paragrafo discusso (snip)
In tal modo ho voluto sottolineare il fatto che un comando aereo degli stati uniti è
arrivato a tali sorprendenti conclusioni solo dopo avere attentamente consultato la mappa
di Piri Reis.


Conclusioni sorprendentemente sbagliate perché basta confrontare la mappa di Piri Reis con il profilo sismico (non importa se con quello pubblicato da Hapgood o con quello più recente) e si vedraà che NON si trova la minima somiglianza (vedi immagini successive)

Quindi devo concludere che gli esperti piloti del comando aeronautico statunitense o sono tutti degli incompetenti o usano sostanze psicotrope. Se però non ti dispiace credo che il loro parametro di valutazione fino a prova contraria sia notoriamente “appena un pochino” più rigoroso, complesso e approfondito di quanto possa avere fatto tu (o gli “esperti” del Cicap) a casa sovrapponendo semplicemente delle cartine geografiche....

Citazione:
Citazione:
E per quanto mi riguarda si tratta di una fonte più che autorevole che vale la pena
prendere in considerazione.....


Non importa quanto la fonte sia autorevole, se tira conclusioni sbagliate (il "principio di autorità" è infatti roba dogmatica, da papi che se la tirano con l'infallibilità)...................

Mi fa piacere constatare una volta tanto che un cicapista prenda in considerazione la fallibilità delle fonti ufficiali....E questo mi sembra un ottimo punto di partenza.

Citazione:
Trovo anch'io soprprendente una cosa a questo punto, che in un forum come questo di Luogocomune, in cui le "affermazioni autorevoli" rilasciate dal governo e dai militari americani dopo l'11 settembre vengono come minimo ridicolizzate, si pretenda di considerare come oro colato le "affermazioni autorevoli" di altri militari americani solo perché ci fanno comodo, senza sottoporle a controllo.

Qui invece stai facendo il gioco delle tre carte come vuole la solida tradizione del CICAP. Una cosa sono affermazioni che provengono da fonti ufficiali che non hanno alcunché da guadagnare dai risultati delle loro indagini, mentre ben altra cosa sono le versioni ufficiali militari riguardo ad eventi che se fossero dimostrati vedrebbero finire allegramente al fresco molti alti ufficiali con tutto il governo USA... In questo caso invece i piloti dell'aeronautica militare americana non solo non potevano trarre alcun vantaggio da simili studi ma avevano tutto da perdere rendendoli pubblici poiché ha rischiavano di imbarcarsi (come è successo) in questioni troppo grandi anche per loro, tematiche idonee a far riscrivere la storia del genere umano da cima a fondo!

Citazione:
Citazione:
se poi consideriamo il fatto che esiste una intera branca dell'archeologia eretica
che va in questa direzione (i c.d. OOPART o oggetti fuori dal tempo) ci accorgeremo che
in realtà si tratta di una ipotesi plausibile.


Ci sono persone che credono nell'inferno e nel paradiso e nelle apparizioni della madonna, e credono pure che fare del sesso fuori dal fine riproduttivo santificato dal matrimonio sia peccato mortale. Ma il fatto che in tanti vadano in questa direzione non significa che la loro sia una ipotesi plausibile.

Paragonare gli OOPART alle apparizioni della Madonna è veramente spararla grossa! Con tutto il rispetto per i fedeli, una cosa sono le presunte esperienze mistiche personali e ben altra cosa sono gli oggetti che esistono materialmente e che hanno effettuato esami di laboratorio. Manufatti che spesso vengono fatti sparire misteriosamente dagli scantinati dei musei in cui erano stati occultati al pubblico...

Citazione:
Citazione:
la mappa di riferimento di Piri Reis sarebbe stata compilata in un periodo in cui il
livello del mare era più basso di circa 130 metri, ovvero quando la linea costiera era assai
diversa da quella attuale.


Piri Reis è molto chiaro nella descrizione della sua mappa del mondo. Dice di averla ricavata da diverse "Mappae Mundi", alcune del tempo di Alessandro Magno, altre disegnate dagli Arabi, altre ancora dai Portoghesi. In particolare Piri Reis si sofferma sul fatto di aver consultato anche una mappa appartenuta al genovese Colombo.....

Grazie per avermi fornito questa “preziosa” informazione sulle antiche fonti di riferimento di Piri Reis ma cosa c'entra con il livello del mare in epoca pre-glaciale?

Citazione:
Citazione:
Una cosa è la c.d. terra australis disegnata completamente a fantasia e un'altra è
voler confondere questa con mappe dalle caratteristiche inspiegabili come quella di Piri
Reis. Hapgood non ha fatto altro che rimettere ordine tra le due cose mentre il Cicap
ovviamente ha l'esclusivo interesse a fare il contrario.


Interesse? quale interesse?

Il CICAP è un comitato “spontaneo” presente con diversi nomi in quasi tutti gli stati dell'Occidente industrializzato (ovvero dove esiste una minoranza di persone che può leggere e informarsi anche al di fuori delle fonti ufficiali). Statisticamente, o meglio il 100% delle volte che interviene lo fa a favore delle lobby accademiche e di tutte le fonti ufficiali. Lo fa sistematicamente sempre e in alcuni casi in palese malafede. Solo per fare uno esempio basta verificare il suo atteggiamento nei confronti dell'emergere di energie alternative come la fusione fredda che minacciano gli interessi dei monopoli energetici. Non sarà mica che la loro istituzione ha uno scopo ben preciso oltre quello ufficialmente dichiarato?

Citazione:
E che nella carta di Piri Reis ci siano caratteristiche inspiegabili non è un fatto, ma una opinione di alcuni. Altri la spiegano benissimo.

Per fortuna c'è ancora chi è libero di pensare oltre i limiti e le convenzioni imposte dal pensiero maggioritario politicamente corretto. Finché ci saranno studiosi seri e preparati con solide argomentazioni alle spalle che pur andando controcorrente avranno il coraggio di difendere il valore di ipotesi probabili ma scomode a suon di logica e di ragione persino a repentaglio delle proprie carriere (e qualche volta della vita), allora io starò con loro e spero che molti altri continueranno a fare altrettanto finché non saremo riusciti a mandare a casa certe teorie maggioritarie superate da tempo. Se per te l'opinione ufficiale è un fatto mentre l'opinione degli studiosi indipendenti è solo una opinione hai tutte le carte in regola per tentare la “scalata” nel CICAP. A loro serve gente così.

Citazione:
Citazione:
E se Eratostene avesse copiato di sana pianta quelle misure sul diametro della terra
da libri molto più antichi della sua epoca? Prima dell'ultima inversione dei poli magnetici
esistevano solo società primitive? Tutti gli OOPART sono solo dei falsi come sostiene il
Cicap?


E comunque siamo sempre lì... sempre a immaginare l'esistenza di libri, mappe, disegni, civiltà... molto più antiche di qualsiasi cosa. E sempre senza poter produrre la minima prova.....

Alcuni OOPART per molti studiosi che li hanno studiati sono prove a tutti gli effetti. E anche se la loro esistenza soffre dell'indifferenza e delle calunnie dei circoli accademici continuano ad esistere.

Citazione:
Citazione:
Che sia sopravvissuta una parte della biblioteca poi definitivamente bruciata da
Amr ibn al-As nel 640 d. C. che importanza può avere ai fini di questa
discussione?


Nessuna, se lo dici tu... Rispondevo ad affermazioni che si trovano in questa discussione.

La questione che forse ti è sfuggita riguarda il fatto che i cristiani bruciarono la biblioteca mandando in fumo gran parte del prezioso materiale letterario in essa custodito. Il fatto che sia sopravvissuta una parte dei volumi poi definitivamente bruciati da un sultano arabo sei in grado tu di spiegarmi che diavolo di importanza può avere ai fini di questa discussione? Secondo te allora dovremmo parlare anche di tutte le copie dei volumi distrutte successivamente al sultano arabo?

Citazione:
Citazione:
qui stiamo cercando di trovare una risposta logica e razionale a come sia potuto
accadere che alcuni navigatori possedessero conoscenze (seppur approssimative) riguardo alla terra d'Antartide sotto i ghiacci!!!


E' proprio questo il punto. Non c'è la minima prova che questi cartografi intendessero disegnare altro che congetture sulla forma di un continente che si immaginava dovesse esserci perché i navigatori intravedevano coste, isole e ghiacci (quelli che si spingevano più a sud)......

Se ti riferisci al fatto che non abbiamo il dvd con le immagini delle mappe prese a riferimento da Piri Reis sono perfettamente d'accordo con te. Se invece vuoi sostenere che la scienza può basarsi solo su prove dirette allora significa che dovremmo cominciare a cancellare dal planetario parecchi dei pianeti extrasolari di cui conosciamo l'esistenza solo grazie a calcoli logico-matematici. E se poi dovessimo applicare lo stesso principio anche alla giurisprudenza dovremmo rilasciare tutti gli assassini di cui non abbiamo fotografie o altre prove dirette dell'omicidio... Se è il medio-evo e l'epoca dei dogmi il periodo storico che sogni sappi che sei nato nel periodo sbagliato.

Citazione:
Citazione:
Il calco della mappa di Buache confrontato alla topografia subglaciale
dell'Antartico ricavato dalle più moderne tecnologie risulta essere troppo simile per essere
solo una coincidenza.


Fammi capire... che somiglianza ci trovi tra la congettura di Buache e il profilo della vera Antartide, ricoperta o no dai ghiacci?.......

Solo questa:


In basso a sinistra vediamo la cartina di Buache nelle giuste proporzioni confrontata con i rilievi sismici del terreno antartico (alla sua destra). Se le due “isole” dell'Antartide che sappiamo esistere sotto il ghiaccio fossero state un tempo unite da un lembo di ghiaccio o più semplicemente a causa del livello del mare più basso, le analogie sarebbero evidenti. La teoria di Hapgood (peraltro molto stimato da Einstein) e di altri ricercatori a lui posteriori come G. Hancock segue questo tipo di interpretazione in quanto esistono numerosi altri indizi e reperti (come gli OOPART) che suggeriscono la correttezza di una simile ipotesi. Che poi Buache non avesse alcun mezzo per sapere quale mappa fosse quella corretta e che quindi prendesse in considerazione anche altre ipotesi questo è un dato di fatto di cui non fa mistero nessuno.

Citazione:
Citazione:
I c.d. oggetti fuori dal tempo e le c.d. tecnologie anacronistiche possedute da
alcuni dei popoli più antichi della terra costituiscono invece la normalità nella storia riletta a 360° gradi...


Non divaghiamo, stiamo parlando di carte geografiche e di conoscenza dell'aspetto del mondo.

La questione è invece pertinente. La mappa non è solo un disegno, essa (per l'ipotesi di cui stiamo parlando) contemplerebbe l'esistenza di una civiltà evoluta in quella che oggi definiamo epoca preistorica. Pertanto il fatto che esistano numerosi studiosi che alla luce delle nuove scoperte scientifiche (pole shift, impatti da asteroidi, OOPART, diluvi, tradizioni etc. etc.) testimoniano oggi il valore del concetto di ciclicità del progresso (legandolo alle dinamiche catastrofiche naturali del nostro pianeta) in opposizione al concetto di sviluppo lineare della civiltà di ottocentesca memoria è invece di fondamentale importanza. Se si fosse trattato invece di un caso unico al mondo e fuori da qualsiasi contesto sarei il primo a sostenere che si tratta solo di un colpo di fortuna.
Inviato il: 20/2/2008 21:05
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                                                               Re: Archeologia alternativa Pausania 21/2/2008 11:09
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                             Re: Archeologia alternativa SENTIERO 11/8/2006 14:09
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                                                                                                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa marcuzzzo 24/10/2006 10:04
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                                                                                                                                     Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 11/10/2006 13:16
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                                                                                                                                         Re: Archeologia alternativa benitoche 13/10/2006 17:50
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                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Archeologia alternativa marcuzzzo 27/10/2006 9:47
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                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Archeologia alternativa Teknomaker 27/10/2006 18:58
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                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Archeologia alternativa Redazione 19/11/2006 5:53
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                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Archeologia alternativa noreprez 20/11/2006 10:17
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                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Archeologia alternativa Det.Conan 20/11/2006 15:51
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                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 1/12/2006 0:57
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                                                                                                                                                             Re: Archeologia alternativa florizel 25/10/2006 2:16
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                                                                                                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 21/8/2006 16:19
                                                       Re: Archeologia alternativa clausneghe 18/8/2006 20:23
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                                               Re: Archeologia alternativa Lestaat 16/8/2006 12:06
                                                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Clorofilla 16/8/2006 12:49
                                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 16/8/2006 13:04
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                         Re: Archeologia alternativa SENTIERO 11/8/2006 0:41
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                                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Tubo 19/8/2006 16:33
                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 19/8/2006 22:46
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           Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 3/8/2006 21:50
             Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 3/8/2006 23:07
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                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Fabrizio70 4/8/2006 7:53
                   Re: Archeologia alternativa Det.Conan 4/8/2006 10:29
                     Re: Archeologia alternativa Alb 4/8/2006 13:20
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                               Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 4/8/2006 23:03
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                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 4/8/2006 23:40
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                                         Re: Archeologia alternativa SENTIERO 6/8/2006 1:15
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                                             Re: Archeologia alternativa _gaia_ 7/8/2006 22:58
                                               Re: Archeologia alternativa Cassandra 8/8/2006 0:25
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                                                     Re: Archeologia alternativa Alb 8/8/2006 11:14
                                             Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 8/8/2006 13:19
                               Re: Archeologia alternativa sitchinite 25/2/2009 7:56
                                 Re: Archeologia alternativa S.Gatti 26/2/2009 10:41
                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa sitchinite 26/2/2009 11:51
                                     Re: Archeologia alternativa S.Gatti 3/3/2009 19:56
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                                         Re: Archeologia alternativa S.Gatti 25/3/2009 6:21
                                           Re: Archeologia alternativa S.Gatti 6/4/2009 8:34
             Re: Archeologia alternativa SENTIERO 3/8/2006 23:27
               Re: Archeologia alternativa Clorofilla 11/8/2006 11:50
                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Lestaat 11/8/2006 13:09
                   Re: Archeologia alternativa Paxtibi 11/8/2006 13:17
                   Re: Archeologia alternativa Clorofilla 11/8/2006 13:25
                     Re: Archeologia alternativa yarebon 11/8/2006 13:41
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           Re: Archeologia alternativa Clorofilla 11/8/2006 10:39
             Re: Archeologia alternativa Det.Conan 11/8/2006 11:31
     Re: Archeologia alternativa ehcsztein 15/8/2006 2:23
       Re: Archeologia alternativa SENTIERO 16/8/2006 1:46
     Re: Archeologia alternativa Dusty 30/11/2006 14:05
     Re: Archeologia alternativa Dusty 1/12/2006 8:39
       Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 2/12/2006 0:34
         Re: Archeologia alternativa Cassandra 2/12/2006 1:00
           Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 2/12/2006 9:45
             Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 2/12/2006 23:17
               Re: Archeologia alternativa partynight 4/12/2006 23:42
                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 6/12/2006 0:06
                   Re: Archeologia alternativa Tato_p2p 5/1/2007 0:12
                     Re: Archeologia alternativa Miciui 9/1/2007 1:57
                       Re: Archeologia alternativa _gaia_ 9/1/2007 11:09
                         Re: Archeologia alternativa Miciui 9/1/2007 17:04
                           Re: Archeologia alternativa fiammifero 10/1/2007 0:01
                             Re: Archeologia alternativa Tato_p2p 10/1/2007 12:34
                               Re: Archeologia alternativa Mayer 7/2/2007 14:38
                                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Dusty 2/4/2007 9:32
                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa _gaia_ 8/5/2007 17:07
                                     Re: Archeologia alternativa mpi 9/5/2007 10:39
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                                             Re: Archeologia alternativa Dusty 19/5/2007 14:10
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                                                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Dusty 26/5/2007 14:41
                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa sitchinite 6/6/2007 0:20
                                     Re: Archeologia alternativa _gaia_ 6/6/2007 11:58
                                       Re: Archeologia alternativa Santaruina 6/6/2007 12:32
     Re: Archeologia alternativa Tubo 5/12/2006 2:55
     Re: Archeologia alternativa orkid 6/6/2007 21:46
     Re: Archeologia alternativa orkid 11/2/2008 22:43
     Re: Archeologia alternativa Ciaolo 12/2/2008 11:21
       Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 12/2/2008 11:41
         Re: Archeologia alternativa SpikeZ 12/2/2008 13:09
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               Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 12/2/2008 13:58
                 Re: Archeologia alternativa SpikeZ 12/2/2008 14:18
                   Re: Archeologia alternativa ahmbar 14/2/2008 4:10
                     Re: Archeologia alternativa redna 14/2/2008 11:55
                       Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 14/2/2008 12:46
                       Re: Archeologia alternativa PikeBishop 14/2/2008 20:30
                         Re: Archeologia alternativa ahmbar 14/2/2008 22:10
                           Re: Archeologia alternativa orkid 15/2/2008 9:46
                         Re: Archeologia alternativa redna 15/2/2008 14:13
                           Re: Archeologia alternativa Kolza 15/2/2008 15:27
                             Re: Archeologia alternativa redna 15/2/2008 21:21
                               Re: Archeologia alternativa Trystero 18/2/2008 3:31
                                 Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 18/2/2008 17:03
                                   Re: Archeologia alternativa Jimbo72 18/2/2008 17:08
                         Re: Archeologia alternativa Trystero 18/2/2008 18:50
                           Re: Archeologia alternativa PikeBishop 19/2/2008 21:56
                             Re: Archeologia alternativa Trystero 19/2/2008 23:27
                             Re: Archeologia alternativa Trystero 20/2/2008 0:35
                           Re: Archeologia alternativa Pausania 20/2/2008 0:12
               Re: Archeologia alternativa Lestaat 12/2/2008 15:19
                 Re: Archeologia alternativa SpikeZ 12/2/2008 17:28
                   Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 12/2/2008 18:33
     Re: Archeologia alternativa orkid 12/2/2008 19:09
       Re: Archeologia alternativa SpikeZ 12/2/2008 19:35
         Re: Archeologia alternativa redna 13/2/2008 9:47
           Re: Archeologia alternativa SpikeZ 13/2/2008 11:15
             Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 13/2/2008 13:03
     Re: Archeologia alternativa Ciaolo 13/2/2008 13:15
       Re: Archeologia alternativa redna 13/2/2008 14:16
         Re: Archeologia alternativa Pausania 13/2/2008 16:02
       Re: Archeologia alternativa orkid 13/2/2008 18:02
     Re: Archeologia alternativa Ciaolo 13/2/2008 16:11
       Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 13/2/2008 18:19
         Re: Archeologia alternativa redna 13/2/2008 21:13
           Re: Archeologia alternativa Pyter 13/2/2008 21:52
           Re: Archeologia alternativa Pausania 13/2/2008 22:02
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       Re: Archeologia alternativa Giano 7/2/2012 15:30
         Re: Archeologia alternativa g_a_b 7/2/2012 17:37
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