Informazioni sul sito
Se vuoi aiutare LUOGOCOMUNE

HOMEPAGE
INFORMAZIONI
SUL SITO
MAPPA DEL SITO

SITE INFO

SEZIONE
11 Settembre
Questo sito utilizza cookies. Continuando la navigazione acconsenti al loro impiego.
 American Moon

Il nuovo documentario
di Massimo Mazzucco
 Login
Nome utente:

Password:


Hai perso la password?

Registrati ora!
 Menu principale
 Cerca nel sito

Ricerca avanzata

TUTTI I DVD DI LUOGOCOMUNE IN OFFERTA SPECIALE

ATTENZIONE: Chiunque voglia scrivere su Luogocomune è pregato di leggere prima QUESTO AVVISO (aggiornato 01.11.07)



Indice del forum Luogocomune
   Scienze Economiche
   Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche

Naviga in questo forum:   1 Utenti anonimi

 

  Vai alla fine    Discussione precedente    Discussione successiva
  •  Vota discussione
      Vota questa discussione
      Eccellente
      Buona
      Discreta
      Scadente
      Terribile
Autore Discussione Votata:  4 Voti
Re: Money from nothing
#1
Sono certo di non sapere
Iscritto il: 25/6/2004
Da
Messaggi: 3996
Offline
Il privato ha tutti i soldi che vuole.

Come qualunque privato potrà facilmente indovinare osservando il proprio estratto conto.

Ma se la domanda non è sufficiente a giustificare l'investimento il privato non investe.

La domanda di che? Trattori, polli, libri?

Tu confondi le risorse per investire e produrre con la domanda.

Ohibò?

Se privatizzassi l'università, impedendo qualsiasi finanziamento che non sia il pagamento della retta da parte di chi la frequenta, avresti rette elevate.

Non si capisce per quale motivo dovrebbe essere impedito qualsiasi altro finanziamento, cosa che si tradurrebbe nell'ennesima legge per il controllo del mercato. Se voglio finanziare l'università X, perché mi ispirano simpatia i laureati della facoltà Y, non sono forse libero di farlo? Immagino che la soluzione sia il pubblico che si mette in concorrenza con il privato, utilizzando soldi prelevati dal privato stesso.

La domanda del servizio universitario calerebbe.

Ohibò al quadrato. E privatizzando l'offerta di servizi telefonici, la domanda di cellulari calerebbe e le tariffe aumenterebbero!

Quindi se lo stato si togliesse di mezzo come sostengono gli ultraliberisti, ci sarebbero due effetti.

Mica uno: due!

Primo, molti meno laureati.

Tradotto: molti meno laureati parcheggiati nei call center di Vodafone ed affini, nonché meno laureati in socioantropologia multiculturale da impiegare nel settore pubblico come social worker assortiti. E questo è male perché...?

Secondo, laddove il calo degli iscritti fosse tale da non rendere in alcun modo conveniente per l'imprenditore privato investire per offrire un servizio che non verrebbe remunerato dai pochi studenti disposti a pagare la retta necessaria a coprire i costi e a offrire un profitto, il servizio non verrebbe reso.

Sicché gli studenti si troverebbero a gravitare intorno alle cosiddette città universitarie, al contrario di quanto avviene oggi: grazie all'istruzione pubblica abbiamo una università in ogni villaggio.

Le analisi ultraliberiste sono poverelle perché

...nessuno le traduce?...

si limitano a dire in modo assai ideologico che lo stato deve togliersi dai piedi, ma ignorano le conseguenze di una domanda scarsa.

Infatti: solitamente le analisi poverelle tralasciano di indicare il motivo per cui lo Stato non dovrebbe rubare a piene mani.

Non per niente il revival di certe teorie negli anni ottanta ha preso il nome di supply side economics.

Non per niente. Infatti:

Inflation and Supply-Side Economics

Karlsson:

Meanwhile, supply-side economics keep delivering us more economic wisdom. Larry Kudlow quotes approvingly Paul Hoffmeister, director of market strategy at the late Jude Wanniski's Polyconomics who now says that money supply increases (which he prefers to talk about as interest rate cuts) far from raising prices will actually lower them! You see, as it will "spur production", it will act to "soak up excess liquidity".

This must qualify as the wackiest economic theory since fellow supply-sider Tom Nugent's idea that budget deficits increase savings. In a confusion quite typical of supply-siders, he shortly thereafter however goes on to say that the Fed should lower the gold price by selling bonds. But selling bonds will uhm lower their price and thus raise interest rates, which of course would according to his theory inhibit production and thus increase prices.

A Walk on The Supply Side

Rothbard:

A central theme of the supply-side school is that a sharp cut in marginal income-tax rates will increase incentives to work and save, and therefore investment and production. That way, few people could take exception. But there are other problems involved. For, at least in the land of the famous Laffer Curve, income tax cuts were treated as the panacea for deficits; drastic cuts would so increase stated revenue as allegedly to yield a balanced budget.

Yet there was no evidence whatever for this claim, and indeed, the likelihood is quite the other way. It is true that if income-tax rates were 98% and were cut to 90%, there would probably be an increase in revenue; but at the far lower tax levels we have been at, there is no warrant for this assumption. In fact, historically, increases in tax rates have been followed by increases in revenue and vice versa.

Continua:

In short, these self-styled "conservative populists" begin to sound like old-fashioned populists in their devotion to inflation and cheap money. But how square that with their championing of the gold standard?

In the answer to this question lies the key to the heart of the seeming contradictions of the new supply-side economics. For the "gold standard" they want provides only the illusion of a gold standard without the substance. The banks would not have to redeem in gold coin, and the Fed would have the right to change the definition of the gold dollar at will, as a device to fine-tune the economy. In short, what the supply-siders want is not the old hard-money gold standard, but the phony "gold standard" of the Bretton Woods era, which collapsed under the bows of inflation and money management by the Fed.

The heart of supply-side doctrine is revealed in its best-selling philosophic manifesto, The Way the World Works by Jude Wanniski. Wanniski's view is that the people, the masses, are always right, and have always been right through history.

In economics, he claims, the masses want a massive welfare state, drastic income-tax cuts, and a balanced budget. How can these contradictory aims be achieved? By the legerdemain of the Laffer Curve. And in the monetary sphere, we might add, what the masses seem to want is inflation and cheap money along with a return to the gold standard. Hence, fueled by the axiom that the public is always right, the supply-siders propose to give the public what they want by giving them an inflationary, cheap-money Fed plus the illusion of stability through a phony gold standard.

The supply-side aim is therefore "democratically" to give the public what they want, and in this case the best definition of "democracy" is that of H.L. Mencken: "Democracy is the view that the people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

The Supply-Side Gold Standard: A Critique

Shostak:

According to "supply-side" economics, the key to economic growth and prosperity is low marginal tax rates. However, the supply-side school also maintains that a low marginal tax rate will not be sufficient, that it must be accompanied by a monetary policy that aims at achieving price stability. The pillar of the proposed monetary policy is a gold-price rule, where the central bank targets the dollar gold price at a specified figure.

The Return of Supply Side

Rockwell:

The main trouble with this doctrine is that it puts too much emphasis on the incentives introduced by tax rate changes and not enough on the overall tax burden. For example, supply-siders at the Wall Street Journal disparage the idea of allowing tax credits for children because it doesn't cause people to churn their investment accounts. Guru Jude Wanniski has attacked Bob Dole's proposed tax credit as "very expensive for what it would yield in added economic growth." Expensive for whom? The government, of course. But from the point of view of the family, it's a wonderful thing, as is any tax cut, anywhere any time. It allows people to keep more of their own money, an essential precondition for restoring prosperity.

Ancora:

To make tax cuts a reality and a public benefit, government must be made to curb its appetite for spending. Without such a curb, the spending will be paid for in other ways: through increased borrowing, which crowds out private investment, or through debt monetization. A similar problem spoils supply-side monetary policy. Many advocate a gold price rule for monetary management. But the chief benefit of gold is that it shackles the ability of government to borrow and monetize debt. All that government spends must be collected in taxes or else. Loose money is absolutely prohibited. The benefits of gold derive from the fiscal discipline it imposes, the discipline supply-siders reject as "root-canal economics."

Ohibò, ohibò e mille volte ohibò, mi sfugge la parte in cui i fanatici adepti di Mises abbracciano con passione la dottrina della supply side economics.

Il libero mercato offre ampia dotazione di dizionari, in bocca al lupo.

Keynes ha semplicemente aperto la strada alla considerazione che se la domanda è scarsa non c'è convenienza a offrire un prodotto o servizio.

Non mi dire? Se la domanda di un prodotto non c'è, è inutile cercare di venderlo? Immagino che nessuno ci avesse mai pensato prima in questi termini. Ora apro la finestra e lo grido a Mustafà, che ha aperto un baracchino qui sotto, "accessori per cammelli."

E mettere + soldi riducendo la spesa pubblica ha l'effetto certo di ridurre la domanda da parte del soggetto pubblico,

"Soggetto pubblico?"

Che roba è?

mentre non dà alcuna garanzia che i maggiori denari nelle tasche dei cittadini generino una maggiore domanda interna privata

Deduco quindi che il cittadino privato è un essere imperfetto, mentre il soggetto pubblico può valutare istantaneamente ogni angolo dell'economia e stimolarlo per spronarlo a raggiungere la massima efficienza? E la marmotta incarta la cioccolata?

La versione errata del pensiero keynesiano è appunto che si giustifica la spesa pubblica (chissà perchè?)

Forse perché hai appena scritto che la domanda pubblica ha il ruolo di complemetare l'incerta domanda privata, priva di garanzie?

Il post nel frattempo è mutato, e leggiamo quanto segue:

certi ultraliberisti pensano che il keynesismo significhi imposizione fiscale elevata o debito pubblico e che antikeynesismo significhi ridurre le imposte.

Ohibò!

E' una visione banale e sbagliata.

Dovuta probabilmente al fatto che il soggetto pubblico ha solo questi due modi di procurarsi denaro?

Ignorano per esempio che il pensiero economico americano ha attaccato Keynes negli anni ottanta durante la presidenza di Reagan che è stato molto keynesiano anche se professava tesi opposte. Reagan ha fatto crescere la spesa pubblica e i deficit USA, anche riducendo le imposte a favore dei ricchi, of course

Ed ecco che naturalmente ritorna Rothbard a sostenere le politiche di Reagan, dopo aver sostenuto la supply side economics.

The Myths of Reaganomics

I come to bury Reaganomics, not to praise it.

Il mistero s'infittisce: Reagan non era forse uno tra gli ultraliberisti seguaci di Mises?

===

perchè se a prezzi costanti hai meno salario, il peso dei consumi aumenterà e quindi diminuirà la parte risparmiata

Peccato che non sia scritto da nessuna parte che i prezzi debbano essere costanti: non sono forse soggetti al solito lieve dettaglio della domanda e dell'offerta?

La parte risparmiata diminuirà solo se il reddito sarà tale da dover intaccare i propri risparmi per vivere, in caso contrario diminuirà l'incremento dei risparmi. Immagino che nel caso in cui non si riesca più a comprare da mangiare sarà probabilmente il caso di cambiar mestiere, lasciando fare il proprio ai provvidenziali migranti che casualmente "fanno i lavori che noi non vogliamo fare", dando quindi ragione ai sostenitori dell'immigrazione di massa: due ricchi piccioni con una fava!



questo perchè vi è una distribuzione dei profitti iniqua che ha portto poche persone ad avere più di ciò che gli spettava

Ohibò: e come possiamo calcolare "quanto spetta" alle persone?

ripeto, il monte salari è il costo di riproduzione del lavoratore-merce, non è la remunerazione del valore aggiunto lavoro :D

Deduco pertanto che il monte salari della scuola pubblica sia il costo di riproduzione del docente-merce, e il valore aggiunto non venga compensato? Lo Stato truffa forse i propri dipendenti?

se la distribuzione dei profitti forse diversa, ogni lavoratore avendo più capitale iniziale avrebbe più possibilità di aprire una cooperativa assieme ad altri lavoratori

Allora per quale oscuro motivo il lavoratore viene tassato, sottraendogli il capitale?

se si tagliassero tutti i dipendenti statali probabilmente nel breve periodo ci sarebbe

E se si curasse il cancro con un proiettile in testa ci sarebbero molti morti nel breve periodo.

Qualcuno ritiene realizzabile l'eliminazione dell'intero settore pubblico dalla sera alla mattina?

per me le aliquote progressive possono arrivare anche al 90% se si vuole... :D

Garanzia che il tassato avrà ben cura di guadagnare una cifra che lo collochi nella fascia meno svantaggiosa. Magari producendo meno e licenziando un po' di gente, oppure spostando fabbriche e capitali in Cina, orrore tra gli orrori. Urge un'aliquota mondiale uguale per tutti.

qual è il migliore? definiscilo

Il migliore è definito dai consumatori e dal mercato. Se fossi io a decidere qual è il migliore in assoluto ti sarebbe di ben misero conforto. Quello che è migliore per te potrebbe essere letame per me. Ad esempio, suggerirei di insegnare ai pargoli a leggere e scrivere prima di raccontar loro la porca favola sugli aborigeni gentili dell'isola di 'Mbonga, che vivono in armonia con la natura mentre noi siamo cattivi, cattivi, cattivi.

per me è quello in cui non ci siano discriminazioni all'entrata in base al reddito

Quindi, detto così, sei a favore del buono scuola di berlusconiana memoria, poiché l'unico vincolo posto è l'accesso all'istruzione, non il suo contenuto. Ma dato che la scuola è non solo pagata ma anche gestita dallo Stato, non è forse vero che viene utilizzata per scopi che non hanno nulla a che fare con l'istruzione e la formazione, nonché la valorizzazione del "capitale umano?"

il deficiente ricco può pagare la retta, l'intelligente povero lotterà per 2 borse ogni 1000 aspiranti, e se ci sono 100 poveri migliori di quel ricco deficiente, ci sara "capitale umano" LETTERALMENTE SPRECATO

Scuola dell'obbligo: nuovamente, servono miliardi per insegnare quelle quattro cose? Sarà un caso se il livello di istruzione peggiora costantemente, rasentando l'analfabetismo, e contemporaneamente si aumenta l'obbligo scolastico e si inventano balle per far passare tutti?

Questa è la scuola contemporanea:

B dropped from school class name

A school has changed the names of its primary one classes after complaints that they left some children feeling inferior, BBC Scotland has learned. Bonnyrigg Primary School had called its classes 1a and 1b but some parents of children in 1b said it left the youngsters feeling second best. The classes will now be known as 1ar and 1ap, incorporating teachers' surnames in the new titles. One Midlothian parent dubbed the move "political correctness gone mad".

Scuola, battaglia sui tabelloni dei voti

MILANO - La scuola discute, e si divide, sui tabelloni di fine anno. Umiliazione pubblica o presa di responsabilità? Il caso innescato dalla proposta del provveditore di Como, Benedetto Scaglione, di sostituire i tabelloni di fine anno con colloqui individuali fa riflettere educatori e docenti. "Troviamo un metodo più umano - aveva detto il provveditore, contrario alla derisione a cui sono sottoposti i ragazzi di fronte alla fotografia del loro rendimento scolastico -, che tenga conto della fragilità dei giovani di oggi. In una società competitiva come la nostra ogni bocciatura è considerata un fallimento. Rendere pubblici i voti non serve a nulla, se non aumentare la frustrazione". A preoccupare Scaglione non è solo la privacy, ma il continuo confronto che gli studenti fanno fra loro. "Un paragone che, se non è accompagnato da una corretta spiegazione, rischia di ferire i più deboli".

Se ne potrebbe ricavare una pubblicità pro-aborto.

Non è forse evidente che la fantomatica equità di accesso si sta trasformando in equità di risultato finale? Vuoi vedere l'intera allegra collezione di articoli?

Dopo che gli studenti sono stati ammessi senza discriminazione in base al reddito (leggi: prezzo), com'è che nessuno spende una parola sul costo dei libri di testo? Per quelli, niente equità? Il fatto di non cambiare testi ogni anno per favorire certi editori (e spacciatori di regali) non potrebbe essere un parametro per il confronto tra scuole, posto che ne traggano vantaggio al contrario di quanto avviene oggi?

Università: sarà anche vero che tutti hanno uguale accesso (ovviamente con tassa in base al reddito, e non è detto che tutti se la possano permettere, perché se guadagno 1000 ma ne spendo 800 in affitto...), ma questo non mi pare abbia risolto il lieve problema delle classi-macelleria, ovvero 1400 studenti del primo anno stipati in una stanza, con assegnato l'ultimo assistente di scarto al posto di un docente, per raccogliere fondi... salvo poi trovarsi in cinque in aula all'ultimo anno. Sarebbe questa l'ottimizzazione del capitale umano? Pigliarli per il culo finché durano, visto che anche i test d'ingresso vengono spacciati come discriminazione ed attentato alla libertà d'istruzione?



il fallimento e perdita di posti di lavoro è una perdita per i lavoratori

Ergo il lavoratore viene tutelato se lo Stato non interviene nell'economia, distorcendo la valutazione degli investimenti con fantasiosi interventi di spesa pubblica stile "distribuzione di box interattivi?"

- se la distribuzione del profitto è iniqua, essa andrà sempre nelle mani di pochi,

...pochi amministratori della cosa pubblica?

che saranno pichini rispetto all'offetta di lavoro polverizzata, poichè ogni persona può lavorare mentre non tutti hanno il capitale

Ogni persona può lavorare, ma può fare forse lo stesso lavoro?

- abbassa l'orario lavorativo a 30 ore settimanali, vediamo cosa accade alla disoccupazione :D

Vuoi forse suggerire di imporre un orario per legge? E quali dovrebbero mai essere i risultati?

come mai ogni volta che c'è aumento di produttività

Misurata da?

non si riduce l'orario di lavoro ma si lascia l'orario di lavoro stabile e si diminuscono i posti di lavoro??

Perché ciascun lavoratore costa il doppio di quanto riceve a forza di tasse, quindi fuori uno e guadagni due?

forse un certo tasso di disoccupazione è importante per gli imprenditori per imporre il livello di salario che più gli piace?

Se potessero imporre un salario, perché non impongono "100" anziché "1000?"

===

Quello che gli ultraliberisti suppongono è che se io riduco la spesa pubblica e metto nelle tasche dei cittadini questo abbia un effetto positivo sull'economia attraverso l'aumento dei consumi privati e degli investimenti.

No. Acqua. Non hai capito: qualcosa ancora ti sfugge. Tu non metti nelle tasche dei cittadini: nelle tasche dei cittadini c'era già, è partito da lì, sei tu che l'hai preso, non messo, perché non era roba tua. Non sei tu che per gentile concessione "metti denaro in tasca al cittadino", non sei la soluzione, sei il problema.

Se l'effetto positivo è maggiore o uguale dell'effeto negativo (minore spesa pubblica) allora la scelta di diminuire le imposte e mettere + soldi nelle tasche dei cittadini sarebbe positiva, almeno da un punto di vista aggregato.

Non mi dire. E praticare l'eutanasia degli anziani contribuirebbe sicuramente a diminuire la spesa pubblica, così come reclutare i giovani in un servizio civile obbligatorio della durata di 10 anni con salario calmierato per legge.

Tuttavia il problema è sempre quello, ovvero che non è compito tuo decidere, pianificare, amministrare secondo i tuoi fantomatici criteri di efficienza. Non è compito tuo a) perché vuoi disporre di risorse non tue, quindi rubate e b) perché se fai una cazzata non paghi in prima persona, ergo la collettività svolge funzione di assicurazione involontaria per ogni tuo esperimento sociale: suppongo che la colpa di ogni fallimento andrà sul contro del "mercato che ha fallito", tanto per cambiare.

La realtà è un poco complicata. Facciamo un esempio.

Facciamo un esempio:

Immaginiamo che lo stato riduca le imposte sul reddito e contemporaneamente tagli per esempio i trasferimenti ai comuni. Un piccolo comune di qualche migliaio di persone riceve 100.000 euro in meno, che vanno ai suoi cittadini.

Nuovamente, lo Stato buono e generoso mette dei soldi in tasca ai cittadini. "Grazie!"

Il comune con 100.000 euro in meno taglia alcune spese. Rinvia il rifacimento di una strada, non assume una bidella, non cambia il camion della nettezza urbana che ha datto 300.000 km.

Non si vede perché il comune debba gestire scuole, strade e nettezza urbana. Altrimenti non si capisce per quale motivo non provveda anche alla distribuzione di cibo casa per casa. Domanda: se il comune non fosse coinvolto in questo losco giro di denaro, il camion e la strada costerebbero ancora la stessa cifra?

Questi tagli si ripercuotono sull'economia locale e spingono l'azienda che asfalta le strade a sua volta a non assumere o a non cambiare il macchinario che ha già lavorato tanto.

Quindi vuol dire che il macchinario funziona ancora egregiamente, ergo sarebbe stato cambiato senza necessità, per la pura esigenza di muovere soldi. L'azienda, ricordiamolo, ha il comune come unico cliente, e dipende interamente da questo, alla faccia della solidità.

Se il camion fosse stato inutilizzabile sarebbe stato cambiato, se fosse stato pericoloso l'assicurazione avrebbe fatto un culo come un secchio alla società, laonde evitare di pagare eventuali danni. Quindi?

Questo ovviamente si ripercuote su chi produce tali beni (il macchinario, il camion per la nettezza urbana), su chi ne fa la manutenzione ecc.

"Senza il comune non avremmo strade!"

E neanche scuole.

Tantomeno cibo in tavola.

Esisterebbe ancora il sole? E l'erba? Ai posteri...

Dall'altro lato i cittadini con 100.000 euro in + (complessivamente) possono decidere di risparmiarne una parte e spendere il resto.

Possono decidere, poiché quei soldi non vengono dedicati immediatamente alla sussistenza. Non possono decidere quando arrivano alla fine del mese senza un centesimo, dopo aver finanziato la sostituzione di un camion al giorno per favorire gli amici degli amici.

La scelta di quanto spendere dipende dall'andamento dell'economia. Se l'economia va male risparmi di + nel timore di averne bisogno in futuro.

Orrore! A questo punto arriva Stiglitz con la favola del welfare, per stimolare i consumi rassicurando gli stupidi cittadini?

La quota spesa non è detto resti sul territorio. Posso scegliere di fare una vacanza alle Maldive o di comperare un cellulare o una tv prodotti in Asia.

Infatti. Perché sono soldi miei, guadagnati.

Quindi è certo che un territorio riceva meno soldi (diminuzione dei consumi pubblici), che questo abbia un effetto moltiplicativo sull'economia nazionale, e che una quota dei maggiori denari nelle tasche dei cittadini finisca in risparmi. Una quota poi finisce nell'acquisto di beni prodotti all'estero

E' un modo gentile per dire che gli amici degli amici non possono più lucrare sulle elargizioni degli amici degli altri amici?

Se per esempio il 10% venisse risparmiato la spesa privata aumenterebbe di 90.000 euro e se una quota (un terzo di quel che resta, supponimo) finisce all'estero o comunque fuori dal territorio che ha subito una riduzione dei trasferimenti pari a 100.000 euro il danno è evidente: i consumi pubblici diminuiscono di 100.000 euro, mentre quelli privati aumentano di 60.000

Il danno? Ma non dovevamo intrattenere scambi con l'estero, per aiutare i paesi poverelli ad uscire dalla povertà, garantendo loro l'accesso ai mercati? Oppure dobbiamo solo comprare il caffé equo e solidale a 10 euro al kg, dopo aver foraggiato la spesa pubblica?

Ohibò al quadrato: l'hai capito oppure no che non sono soldi tuoi? Altrimenti dovremmo sostenere che il comune dovrebbe prelevare il 100%, distribuire il 100% e predicare l'autarchia. Non è forse questo il senso?

La domanda diminuisce di 40.000 euro.

Come faremo, senza la domanda artificiale creata dal comune in base a fantasiosi criteri?

Per quale motivo il comune non provvede a fornire un accesso telefonico a tutti, bene fondamentale del nuovo millennio? In questo modo potrebbe incrementare ulteriormente la spesa pubblica.

Per quanto riguarda gli investimenti essi dipendono -in gran parte-dalle aspettative di consumo e quindi dalle aspettative reddito di chi consuma.

Eh.

Se ci si aspetta consumi in crescita si investe. I consumi cresce il reddito, principalmente.

Avanti:

Detto questo e per venire all'obiezione, è vero che consumi bassi riducono la domanda. I consumi insieme a investimenti e esportazioni fanno parte della domanda. Se tu da domani riduci i tuoi consumi di pane e se fanno lo stesso quelli che abitano nella tua città aumentano i tuoi risparmi ma prima o poi qualche panetteria chiude.

Quindi dobbiamo prelevare denaro da tutti e far acquistare pane al comune, in modo che possa distribuirlo a...?

Stai scherzando, vero?

E se al posto del pane avessi usato l'esempio delle Mercedes, dovremmo provare compassione per i concessionari? Suvvia: la gente non risparmia sul pane finché non ha già risparmiato su tutto il resto, solitamente dopo aver foraggiato la solita spesa pubblica. Ovvero: box interattivi comprati in Cina, alla faccia del consumo locale, o consulenti d'immagine per qualche politico, o missioni di pace in Zambonia.

Proprio perchè i consumi sono deboli e la domanda insufficiente si ricorre al deficit pubblico, che assicura una maggiore domanda.

Dei prodotti venduti dall'appaltatore preferito?

Per finanziarla si ricorre poi ai risparmi dei cittadini, emettendo BOT, CCT ecc.

Ma è chiaro: siccome i cittadini non investono, allora si emettono titoli in modo che i cittadini investano (!) pagando l'interesse con le tasse (!) prelevate dai cittadini stessi (!). Ovvero: si fornisce ai cittadini un investimento sicuro, cioè garantito dalla facoltà dello Stato di puntare una pistola in faccia al contribuente e derubarlo: investimento a rischio zero.

Non c'è nessun prelievo obbligatorio, nessuno è costretto a far nulla, se non pagare (sempre che lo faccia) le imposte.

Nessuno è costretto a far nulla, ovviamente: e quando mai?

Certamente più spendono i privati e più spendono per acquistare alcuni tipi di beni meglio è.

"Alcuni?"

Anche per questo occorrerebbe scoraggiare taluni tipi di investimento dei risparmi (per esempio in abitazioni -salvo naturalmente la prima casa).

Ah sì? E chi l'ha deciso?

Per quale oscuro motivo il cittadino "investe" nel mattone, se non nella triste convinzione che il prezzo è destinato a salire in eterno, grazie alla consueta bolla di credito finanziata a forza di aria fresca?

Non tutti i consumi sono uguali.

Strano!

Non solo perchè producono effetti diversi sull'economia, ma anche perchè la dotazione di infrastrutture o di conoscenza di un paese dipende dal tipo di consumi e a sua volta ha effetti non neutri sulla capacità di produrre reddito in futuro.

E tutto ciò va fatto pianificare al governo, che ha tutte le informazioni necessarie per guidare l'economia verso la prosperità collettiva? Lo stesso governo che rischia con soldi altrui e non risponde a nessuno se non durante le risibili "elezioni?" Quale incentivo dovrebbe mai avere per migliorare l'economia, visto che può già rubare arbitrariamente?

Suvvia.
Inviato il: 17/6/2006 21:46
Crea PDF dal messaggio Stampa
Vai all'inizio
Oggetto: Autore Data
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche vincenzo 29/9/2005 15:35
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche drew 29/9/2005 17:20
       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Linucs 9/12/2005 11:58
         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 9/12/2005 12:19
           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 9/12/2005 13:34
             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Jck 9/12/2005 18:58
               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 9/12/2005 21:42
                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Gianlvca 9/12/2005 22:42
                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche goldstein 13/12/2005 15:20
                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 14/12/2005 0:24
                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 8/1/2006 16:08
                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche giool 8/1/2006 16:21
                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 8/1/2006 16:39
                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche vincenzo 8/1/2006 17:01
                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche giool 8/1/2006 17:27
                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 8/1/2006 17:39
                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 8/1/2006 17:57
                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche vincenzo 8/1/2006 18:04
                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche giool 8/1/2006 18:19
                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 8/1/2006 19:05
                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche giool 8/1/2006 19:42
                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche giool 8/1/2006 20:59
                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche vincenzo 9/1/2006 23:39
                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 27/1/2006 2:01
                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche SWE 27/1/2006 10:18
                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 27/1/2006 16:22
                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 30/1/2006 11:18
                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche spinox 30/1/2006 14:18
                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 30/1/2006 15:06
                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche illupodeicieli 30/1/2006 15:38
                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 30/1/2006 17:06
                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche spinox 30/1/2006 17:54
                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 30/1/2006 18:25
                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 30/1/2006 18:36
                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche spinox 30/1/2006 20:34
                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 31/1/2006 13:52
                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Menphis75 20/2/2006 13:02
                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 20/2/2006 13:35
                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 20/2/2006 14:43
                                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 20/2/2006 15:33
                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 20/2/2006 15:52
                                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 20/2/2006 16:37
                                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 20/2/2006 17:06
                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 20/2/2006 22:38
                                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche goldstein 20/2/2006 23:09
                                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 21/2/2006 0:01
                                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 21/2/2006 0:03
                                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 21/2/2006 0:07
                                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Linucs 21/2/2006 0:21
                                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 21/2/2006 0:36
                                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 21/2/2006 20:25
                                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Linucs 21/2/2006 21:03
                                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 21/2/2006 21:25
                                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 21/2/2006 21:17
                                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 21/2/2006 21:45
                                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Timor 25/2/2006 18:56
                                                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Timor 26/2/2006 1:36
                                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche goldstein 26/2/2006 2:03
                                                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Timor 26/2/2006 10:20
                                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche goldstein 26/2/2006 10:45
                                                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 26/2/2006 17:48
                                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 26/2/2006 18:03
                                                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 26/2/2006 18:15
                                                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 26/2/2006 20:40
                                                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Timor 26/2/2006 21:32
                                                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 26/2/2006 21:45
                                                                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 26/2/2006 21:47
                                                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 26/2/2006 21:58
                                                                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 26/2/2006 21:59
                                                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 26/2/2006 22:07
                                                                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 26/2/2006 22:13
                                                                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 26/2/2006 22:25
                                                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 26/2/2006 22:25
                                                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 26/2/2006 22:33
                                                                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 26/2/2006 22:43
                                                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 26/2/2006 22:52
                                                                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 6/6/2006 11:21
                                                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 6/6/2006 11:39
                                                                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 6/6/2006 12:09
                                                                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 6/6/2006 12:17
                                                                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 6/6/2006 12:27
                                                                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 6/6/2006 12:38
                                                                                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 6/6/2006 12:41
                                                                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 6/6/2006 12:53
                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 30/1/2006 21:10
                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 30/1/2006 21:55
                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 30/1/2006 22:57
                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche vincenzo 30/1/2006 23:16
                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 30/1/2006 23:34
                                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche vincenzo 30/1/2006 23:40
                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 31/1/2006 9:25
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 15:11
       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 27/2/2006 15:46
         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 16:04
           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 27/2/2006 16:14
             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 16:22
               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 27/2/2006 16:29
                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 17:36
                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 27/2/2006 17:58
                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 27/2/2006 18:05
                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 19:00
                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 27/2/2006 19:17
                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 27/2/2006 19:31
                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 27/2/2006 21:19
                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 27/2/2006 21:26
                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 27/2/2006 21:44
                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 27/2/2006 21:53
                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 27/2/2006 22:02
                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 22:03
                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 27/2/2006 22:31
                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 23:08
                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 28/2/2006 0:25
                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 28/2/2006 0:35
                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 28/2/2006 0:54
                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 28/2/2006 0:56
                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Paxtibi 28/2/2006 1:05
                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 28/2/2006 10:20
                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 28/2/2006 11:18
                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 28/2/2006 11:48
                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 28/2/2006 12:11
                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 28/2/2006 14:07
                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 28/2/2006 14:48
                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 28/2/2006 15:14
                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 28/2/2006 16:27
                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sandro 4/4/2006 22:19
                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 4/4/2006 22:28
                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 4/4/2006 23:00
                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ramingo 5/5/2006 9:28
                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 5/5/2006 9:37
                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ramingo 5/5/2006 12:57
                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 5/5/2006 13:08
                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 5/5/2006 13:28
                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche fiammifero 5/5/2006 13:15
                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 5/5/2006 13:29
                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 5/5/2006 13:41
                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 5/5/2006 13:49
                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 5/5/2006 15:04
                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche cocis 7/5/2006 22:48
                                                                 Bisogna anche dire che il signoraggio alla Pascucci semplicemente non esiste Freigeld 9/5/2006 18:56
                                                                   Re: Bisogna anche dire che il signoraggio alla Pascucci semplicemente non esiste Ulisse86 9/5/2006 19:51
                                                                     Re: Bisogna anche dire che il signoraggio alla Pascucci semplicemente non esiste Freigeld 9/5/2006 20:49
                                                                       Re: Bisogna anche dire che il signoraggio alla Pascucci semplicemente non esiste Ulisse86 9/5/2006 21:23
                                                                         Re: Bisogna anche dire che il signoraggio alla Pascucci semplicemente non esiste Freigeld 9/5/2006 22:06
                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 9/5/2006 23:04
                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 9/5/2006 23:34
                                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Santaruina 10/5/2006 0:17
                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ulisse86 10/5/2006 0:22
                                                                                   Re: Il signoraggio alla Pascucci non esiste Freigeld 10/5/2006 9:29
                                                                                     Money from nothing Santaruina 10/5/2006 10:46
                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Dusty 10/5/2006 11:25
                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 10/5/2006 11:42
                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 10/5/2006 11:50
                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 10/5/2006 12:10
                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 13:52
                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 10/5/2006 14:25
                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 14:38
                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 10/5/2006 14:49
                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 15:08
                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 10/5/2006 15:32
                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 16:02
                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 10/5/2006 16:10
                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 16:28
                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Dusty 10/5/2006 17:01
                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 10/5/2006 17:40
                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Dusty 10/5/2006 18:02
                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 10/5/2006 18:08
                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 18:51
                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 10/5/2006 19:55
                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 20:50
                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 10/5/2006 22:58
                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/5/2006 23:49
                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 11/5/2006 0:24
                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 11/5/2006 1:20
                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 11/5/2006 11:50
                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 11/5/2006 15:46
                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Dusty 12/5/2006 22:27
                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/5/2006 23:03
                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Timor 14/5/2006 15:13
                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing ziomao 19/5/2006 16:13
                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Piero79 30/5/2006 21:56
                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 30/5/2006 23:44
                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Timor 4/6/2006 18:59
                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 4/6/2006 19:55
                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Timor 4/6/2006 20:56
                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Linucs 4/6/2006 22:55
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Timor 5/6/2006 18:43
                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 5/6/2006 19:58
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Linucs 5/6/2006 20:37
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 6/6/2006 17:52
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 7/6/2006 22:56
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 8/6/2006 0:38
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Timor 8/6/2006 16:05
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 8/6/2006 19:20
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Linucs 8/6/2006 19:55
                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Timor 9/6/2006 20:42
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 9/6/2006 20:58
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 10/6/2006 1:51
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/6/2006 10:27
                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Timor 10/6/2006 12:11
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Timor 10/6/2006 12:24
                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 10/6/2006 12:30
                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/6/2006 13:21
                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Timor 10/6/2006 13:55
                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/6/2006 15:09
                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Linucs 10/6/2006 15:32
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/6/2006 17:27
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Timor 10/6/2006 18:13
                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Linucs 10/6/2006 18:21
                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Abulafia 10/6/2006 18:43
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/6/2006 18:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Abulafia 10/6/2006 19:02
                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/6/2006 18:39
                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Timor 10/6/2006 21:54
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 10/6/2006 23:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 15:28
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 11/6/2006 15:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 11/6/2006 17:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 19:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 19:08
                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 10/6/2006 17:59
                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 11/6/2006 19:18
                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 11/6/2006 20:16
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 11/6/2006 20:39
                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 21:02
                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Linucs 11/6/2006 21:11
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 21:47
                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 21:11
                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing goldstein 11/6/2006 21:32
                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 21:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 21:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Linucs 11/6/2006 21:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 11/6/2006 22:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Linucs 11/6/2006 22:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:41
                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Linucs 11/6/2006 22:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 22:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 22:49
                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 11/6/2006 23:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 11/6/2006 23:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 23:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 11/6/2006 23:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 12/6/2006 0:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 0:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 0:13
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 0:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 0:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 0:26
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 0:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 0:48
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing sandro 12/6/2006 0:49
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 0:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 0:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing sandro 12/6/2006 1:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 12/6/2006 1:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing sandro 12/6/2006 1:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 12/6/2006 1:18
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing sandro 12/6/2006 1:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 12/6/2006 1:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 10:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Linucs 12/6/2006 10:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 11:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Timor 12/6/2006 12:02
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 12:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Linucs 12/6/2006 12:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 12:48
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Linucs 12/6/2006 13:01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Dusty 12/6/2006 13:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 13:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 13:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 13:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 13:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 14:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 14:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 14:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 14:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 14:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 14:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 14:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 14:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 15:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Timor 12/6/2006 15:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Dusty 12/6/2006 15:49
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 16:28
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 17:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 17:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Dusty 12/6/2006 18:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 18:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 18:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 19:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Timor 12/6/2006 19:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 22:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 19:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Linucs 12/6/2006 22:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 23:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 12/6/2006 23:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing nessuno 12/6/2006 23:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 12/6/2006 23:42
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 12/6/2006 23:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 13/6/2006 0:01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 13/6/2006 1:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 13/6/2006 9:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 13/6/2006 10:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 13/6/2006 12:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 13/6/2006 12:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Timor 13/6/2006 13:53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 13/6/2006 14:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing sandro 13/6/2006 14:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 13/6/2006 17:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Timor 13/6/2006 14:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 13/6/2006 15:02
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Timor 13/6/2006 16:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 13/6/2006 16:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 13/6/2006 17:26
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Timor 13/6/2006 17:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 13/6/2006 17:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 13/6/2006 17:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 13/6/2006 20:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 13/6/2006 20:49
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 13/6/2006 20:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Linucs 13/6/2006 21:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 13/6/2006 23:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Linucs 13/6/2006 23:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 13/6/2006 23:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing bandit 13/6/2006 23:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 13/6/2006 23:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 13/6/2006 23:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 13/6/2006 23:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing bandit 14/6/2006 0:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 14/6/2006 0:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 14/6/2006 0:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Linucs 14/6/2006 22:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 14/6/2006 23:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing bandit 14/6/2006 23:16
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing bandit 14/6/2006 23:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 14/6/2006 23:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 14/6/2006 23:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 14/6/2006 23:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 15/6/2006 0:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing _gaia_ 15/6/2006 13:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 15/6/2006 13:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 15/6/2006 13:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 15/6/2006 14:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 15/6/2006 14:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 15/6/2006 15:26
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Timor 15/6/2006 18:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 15/6/2006 19:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 15/6/2006 20:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 15/6/2006 23:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 16/6/2006 0:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Timor 16/6/2006 0:13
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing sandro 16/6/2006 0:41
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 16/6/2006 0:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Timor 16/6/2006 1:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 16/6/2006 1:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Timor 16/6/2006 10:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Timor 16/6/2006 10:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 16/6/2006 10:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 16/6/2006 11:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing sandro 16/6/2006 14:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 16/6/2006 14:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing sandro 16/6/2006 14:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 16/6/2006 15:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 16/6/2006 15:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 16/6/2006 15:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing sandro 16/6/2006 15:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing sandro 16/6/2006 15:48
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing sandro 16/6/2006 23:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Linucs 17/6/2006 0:01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Linucs 17/6/2006 0:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 17/6/2006 0:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Linucs 17/6/2006 15:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 17/6/2006 15:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 17/6/2006 16:18
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing bandit 17/6/2006 17:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 17/6/2006 20:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing bandit 17/6/2006 21:42
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Linucs 17/6/2006 21:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 18/6/2006 0:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 18/6/2006 1:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 18/6/2006 1:53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 18/6/2006 1:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 18/6/2006 14:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 18/6/2006 14:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 18/6/2006 14:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing bandit 18/6/2006 17:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 18/6/2006 18:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing bandit 18/6/2006 18:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 18/6/2006 19:01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing bandit 18/6/2006 19:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 18/6/2006 19:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing bandit 18/6/2006 19:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 18/6/2006 19:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 18/6/2006 21:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing bandit 18/6/2006 22:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 18/6/2006 22:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 18/6/2006 23:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing bandit 18/6/2006 23:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 19/6/2006 0:13
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing bandit 19/6/2006 0:28
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 19/6/2006 0:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing bandit 19/6/2006 0:53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 19/6/2006 1:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 19/6/2006 1:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 19/6/2006 2:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 19/6/2006 2:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 19/6/2006 8:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing sandro 19/6/2006 14:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 19/6/2006 14:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing emi 22/6/2006 11:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 22/6/2006 14:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing emi 22/6/2006 14:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 22/6/2006 14:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing emi 5/7/2006 14:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 5/7/2006 14:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Linucs 10/7/2006 21:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing emi 11/7/2006 12:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing emi 11/7/2006 13:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing emi 11/7/2006 13:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing emi 11/7/2006 14:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing emi 11/7/2006 14:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing ISEO 25/7/2006 15:53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 25/7/2006 16:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing illupodeicieli 25/7/2006 18:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing sandro 3/8/2006 19:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing illupodeicieli 4/8/2006 19:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 29/11/2006 20:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing bandit 29/11/2006 21:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing edo 29/11/2006 21:28
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing noreprez 30/11/2006 18:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing noreprez 30/11/2006 18:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing clausneghe 30/11/2006 20:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing noreprez 30/11/2006 21:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Linucs 30/11/2006 21:34
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing noreprez 30/11/2006 21:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Linucs 1/12/2006 1:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing swat 13/2/2007 18:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Linucs 13/2/2007 20:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 13/2/2007 20:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Descartes 4/3/2008 9:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Daniele 4/3/2008 18:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Mande 5/3/2008 18:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Descartes 6/3/2008 12:18
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Mande 6/3/2008 17:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Descartes 6/3/2008 22:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Mande 7/3/2008 7:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Descartes 7/3/2008 13:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Mande 7/3/2008 18:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/3/2008 18:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Mande 7/3/2008 20:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/3/2008 20:18
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Mande 7/3/2008 20:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/3/2008 20:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Mande 7/3/2008 21:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Linucs 7/3/2008 21:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Mande 7/3/2008 21:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Linucs 7/3/2008 21:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Mande 7/3/2008 22:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/3/2008 22:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Linucs 7/3/2008 22:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing sbaffini 17/3/2008 20:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Orwell84 18/3/2008 9:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing sbaffini 18/3/2008 11:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Mande 19/3/2008 18:16
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 19/3/2008 18:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Mande 19/3/2008 18:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 19/3/2008 19:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Mande 19/3/2008 20:28
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Linucs 19/3/2008 20:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Mande 19/3/2008 20:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Mande 20/3/2008 18:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Linucs 20/3/2008 22:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Mande 21/3/2008 0:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing sbaffini 21/3/2008 3:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Mande 21/3/2008 18:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing bandit 21/3/2008 19:26
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Mande 21/3/2008 20:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Dusty 22/3/2008 13:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Mande 22/3/2008 14:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing xwus 25/3/2008 11:48
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Mande 25/3/2008 20:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Pausania 25/3/2008 21:16
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 26/3/2008 11:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Mande 27/3/2008 3:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing xwus 26/3/2008 20:18
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Descartes 28/3/2008 21:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 28/3/2008 21:53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Mande 29/3/2008 12:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Mande 30/3/2008 12:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 30/3/2008 20:02
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Mande 30/3/2008 23:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing ursog 1/4/2008 0:53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing ursog 1/4/2008 1:16
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing ursog 1/4/2008 1:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Mande 1/4/2008 1:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Mande 1/4/2008 2:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 1/4/2008 12:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Paxtibi 1/4/2008 14:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Mande 1/4/2008 17:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Mande 1/4/2008 18:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing sbaffini 1/4/2008 18:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 1/4/2008 19:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Mande 1/4/2008 19:49
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing ursog 2/4/2008 3:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Mande 2/4/2008 19:13
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing ursog 1/4/2008 22:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 1/4/2008 23:26
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing ursog 2/4/2008 2:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Pausania 2/4/2008 10:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing ursog 2/4/2008 21:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Pausania 2/4/2008 22:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing ursog 3/4/2008 10:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Pausania 3/4/2008 19:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 3/4/2008 19:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing terzaghi 24/6/2008 14:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Linucs 24/6/2008 18:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing _gaia_ 24/6/2008 20:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Dusty 24/6/2008 21:01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing ursog 1/4/2008 23:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing bandit 2/4/2008 0:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing sandro 18/6/2006 23:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing sandro 16/6/2006 15:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Santaruina 16/6/2006 15:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Fotogian 15/6/2006 15:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 15/6/2006 0:44
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing miah 13/6/2006 14:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing UncasO 13/6/2006 14:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing bandit 13/6/2006 9:42
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Timor 12/6/2006 14:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 15:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Timor 12/6/2006 15:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 12/6/2006 15:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Ulisse86 12/6/2006 0:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Timor 12/6/2006 0:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 12/6/2006 0:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Linucs 11/6/2006 21:48
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing sandro 11/6/2006 22:01
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 21:19
                                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 11/6/2006 20:33
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 6/6/2006 18:18
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 6/6/2006 18:26
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Timor 6/6/2006 19:22
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 6/6/2006 20:33
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Timor 6/6/2006 20:57
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 7/6/2006 14:03
                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Timor 7/6/2006 17:57
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/6/2006 18:04
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/6/2006 14:31
                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 7/6/2006 15:36
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/6/2006 16:08
                                                                                                                                                                   Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 7/6/2006 17:05
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 7/6/2006 17:22
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 7/6/2006 17:27
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 7/6/2006 18:09
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 7/6/2006 18:59
                                                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Timor 7/6/2006 20:47
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Freigeld 7/6/2006 21:12
                                                                                                                                                                               Re: Money from nothing Timor 7/6/2006 22:20
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Money from nothing Timor 5/6/2006 22:07
                                                                                                                                                       Re: Money from nothing Timor 5/6/2006 23:30
                                                                                                                                                         Re: Money from nothing sandro 6/6/2006 1:16
                                                                                                                                           Re: Money from nothing Linucs 4/6/2006 20:01
                                                                                             Re: Money from nothing Ashoka 10/5/2006 15:38
                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Freigeld 27/2/2006 21:12
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche terzaghi 25/6/2008 11:09
       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche soulsaver 25/6/2008 14:28
         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche terzaghi 26/6/2008 9:58
           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Mande 26/6/2008 23:13
             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche terzaghi 27/6/2008 8:35
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche stigas 27/2/2009 14:40
       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Kolza 27/2/2009 16:14
         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche imike 8/5/2009 15:25
           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche _gaia_ 8/5/2009 17:37
             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 8/5/2009 19:02
         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche edo 9/5/2009 8:57
           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 18/7/2009 8:16
             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche PikeBishop 18/7/2009 10:33
               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 18/7/2009 13:51
                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche PikeBishop 18/7/2009 14:11
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sick-boy 18/7/2009 10:10
       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 18/7/2009 14:05
         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche PikeBishop 18/7/2009 14:19
           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 19/7/2009 16:13
             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 19/7/2009 16:28
               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Sertes 19/7/2009 16:38
                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 19/7/2009 23:24
                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 19/7/2009 23:43
                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 20/7/2009 10:30
                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 20/7/2009 17:18
                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 21/7/2009 10:07
                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 21/7/2009 20:30
                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 2/12/2009 12:00
                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche imike 12/12/2009 17:11
                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Spectral84 23/1/2010 12:12
                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Mande 23/1/2010 19:51
                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Spectral84 23/1/2010 23:28
                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Mande 24/1/2010 2:16
                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Spectral84 24/1/2010 11:52
                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Mande 24/1/2010 13:03
                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Dusty 24/1/2010 13:56
                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Spectral84 24/1/2010 14:44
                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 24/1/2010 16:43
                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 24/1/2010 17:01
                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Manfred 24/1/2010 17:59
                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 24/1/2010 23:13
                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Mande 24/1/2010 23:43
                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 25/1/2010 10:37
                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 25/1/2010 10:51
                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Spectral84 26/1/2010 20:59
                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Spectral84 27/1/2010 17:31
                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 27/1/2010 22:07
                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Spectral84 27/1/2010 22:24
                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 28/1/2010 8:39
                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 28/1/2010 11:30
                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 28/1/2010 13:19
                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Ashoka 28/1/2010 14:53
                                                                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 28/1/2010 17:19
                                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 28/1/2010 17:37
                                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche METAL4EVER 2/9/2010 12:36
                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 2/9/2010 13:53
                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche temponauta 2/9/2010 14:09
                                                                               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 2/9/2010 21:57
                                                                                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Dusty 2/9/2010 22:15
                                                                                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 2/9/2010 22:28
                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Dusty 2/9/2010 22:35
                                                                                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Orwell84 2/9/2010 22:37
                                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Orwell84 2/9/2010 22:24
                                                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 27/1/2010 18:08
                                                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 27/1/2010 18:49
                                                             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche a_mensa 27/1/2010 21:20
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche sick-boy 13/9/2010 19:20
     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Fabyan 8/6/2011 23:39
       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche lysmata 15/6/2011 1:19
         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Blackmail 15/6/2011 8:40
           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche lysmata 17/6/2011 1:13
             Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche florizel 20/10/2011 11:04
               Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche infosauro 1/6/2012 14:59
                 Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche incredulo 1/6/2012 17:50
                   Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche Pyter 1/6/2012 17:54
                     Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche edo 21/12/2012 8:27
                       Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche incredulo 21/12/2012 11:33
                         Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche edo 21/12/2012 20:01
                           Re: Il Signoraggio e la truffa delle banche invisibile 10/5/2013 10:35
 Vai all'inizio   Discussione precedente   Discussione successiva

 


 Non puoi inviare messaggi.
 Puoi vedere le discussioni.
 Non puoi rispondere.
 Non puoi modificare.
 Non puoi cancellare.
 Non puoi aggiungere sondaggi.
 Non puoi votare.
 Non puoi allegare files.
 Non puoi inviare messaggi senza approvazione.

Powered by XOOPS 2.0 © 2001-2003 The XOOPS Project
Sponsor: Vorresti creare un sito web? Prova adesso con EditArea.   In cooperazione con Amazon.it   theme design: PHP-PROXIMA