Re: Marijuana proibita: domande e risposte
Inviato da Linucs il 11/12/2006 23:04:36
non mi si è ancora dimostrato il contrario. A me risulta che il 96% del patrimonio genetico umano è identico a quello delle scimmie non degli dei.
!
e questo penso abbia un risvolto anche comportamentale in tutti noi (non solo in lucio dalla).
?
il fatto che si digiti su di un laptop, che invece di girar per boschi e foreste si usi il denaro per procacciarsi il nutrimento, che piuttosto che spulciarci ci dilunghiamo in elocubrazioni metafisiche non mi pare che produca un gap così vasto tra noi ed i poveri ed innocenti animali.
!!
questo viene alla luce specie se si fa un'analisi etologica dei fini ultimi e delle cause scatenanti dell'azione umana, e non dei suoi mezzi
Orbene, partiamo allora dalla tua ipotesi, traendone le dovute conseguenze.
Dmitri Belyaev
Dmitri Belyaev (1917-1985) - a Russian scientist, academician. In the 1950s Dmitri Belyaev and his team spent many years breeding the silver fox (Vulpes vulpes) and selecting only those individuals that showed the least fear of humans. Eventually, Belyaev's team selected only those that showed the most positive response to humans. He ended up with a population of foxes whose behavior and appearance was significantly changed. After about ten generations of controlled breeding, these foxes no longer showed any fear of humans and often wagged their tails and licked their human caretakers to show affection. They also started to have spotted coats, floppy ears, and curled tails. At the time, biologists were puzzled as to how dogs evolved to have different coats than wolves. They couldn't figure how dogs got those genes from wolves. (One never sees spotted, floppy-eared, gay-tailed wolves in wild populations.) Belyaev saw his foxes as a perfect opportunity to find out how this happened. He and his colleagues began performing tests on the animals. When they checked the adrenaline levels of the domesticated foxes, they found that they were significantly lower than normal. This is feasible, because foxes that are not afraid of humans are going to produce less adrenaline around them. This explains the foxes' tameness, but it doesn't really explain their multicolor coats. The scientists theorized that adrenaline shares a biochemical pathway with melanin, which controls pigment production.
Tame Silver Fox
Tame Silver Foxes are the results of nearly 50 years of experiments in Russia to domesticate the Silver Fox. Notably, the foxes did not only become more tame, but more dog-like as well: the new foxes lost their distinctive musky "fox smell", became more friendly with humans, put their ears down (like dogs), wagged their tails when happy and began to vocalize and bark like domesticated dogs. The breeding project was set up by Russian scientist Dmitri Belyaev, encouraged by the Communist Party of the time because of its link with the aim to control and improve the human condition.
Initial experiment
Scientists were interested by the topic of domestication, and how wolves were able to become tame, like dogs. They saw some retention of juvenile traits by adult dogs: both morphological ones such as skulls that were unusually broad for their length, and behavioural ones such as whining, barking and submissiveness.
Belyaev believed that the key factor selected for domestication of dogs was not size or reproduction, but behaviour; specifically amenability to domestication, or tamability. More than any other quality, Belyaev believed, tamability must have determined how well an animal would adapt to life among human beings. Because behavior is rooted in biology, selecting for tameness and against aggression means selecting for physiological changes in the systems that govern the body's hormones and neurochemicals.
Belyaev decided to test his theory by domesticating foxes; in particular the Russian Silver Fox. He placed a population of them in the same process of domestication, and he decided to submit this population to a strong selection pressure for inherent tameness.
The result is that Russian scientists now have a number of tame foxes which are fundamentally different in temperament and behaviour from their wild forebears. Some important changes in physiology and morphology are now visible, such as mottled or spotted colored fur.
Fast fox evolution
Belyaev chose to test his theory on the silver fox, a variant of the common red fox, because it is a social animal and is related to the dog. Though fur farmers had kept silver foxes for about 50 years, the foxes remained quite wild. Belyaev began his experiment in 1959 with 130 farm-bred silver foxes, using their tolerance of human contact as the sole criterion for choosing the parents of the next generation.
"The audacity of this experiment is difficult to overestimate," Dr. Fitch has written. "The selection process on dogs, horses, cattle or other species had occurred, mostly unconsciously, over thousands of years, and the idea that Belyaev's experiment might succeed in a human lifetime must have seemed bold indeed."
In fact, after only eight generations, foxes that would tolerate human presence became common in Belyaev's stock. Belyaev died in 1985, but his experiment was continued by his successor, Lyudmila N. Trut. The experiment did not become widely known outside Russia until 1999, when Dr. Trut published an article in American Scientist. She reported that after 40 years of the experiment, and the breeding of 45,000 foxes, a group of animals had emerged that were as tame and as eager to please as a dog.
As Belyaev had predicted, other changes appeared along with the tameness, even though they had not been selected for. The tame silver foxes had begun to show white patches on their fur, floppy ears, rolled tails and smaller skulls.
...There was far more to Belyaev's experiment than the production of tame foxes. He developed a parallel colony of vicious foxes, and he started domesticating other animals, like river otters and mink. Realizing that genetics can be better studied in smaller animals, Belyaev also started a study of rats, beginning with wild rats caught locally. His rat experiment was continued after his death by Irina Plyusnina. Siberian gray rats caught in the wild, bred separately for tameness and for ferocity, have developed these entirely different behaviors in only 60 or so generations.
The collection of species bred by Belyaev and his successors form an unparalleled resource for studying the process and genetics of domestication. In a recent visit to Novosibirsk, Dr. Brian Hare of the Planck Institute used the silver foxes to probe the unusual ability of dogs to understand human gestures.
If a person hides food and then points to the location with a steady gaze, dogs will instantly pick up on the cue, while animals like chimpanzees, with considerably larger brains, will not. Dr. Hare wanted to know if dogs' powerful rapport with humans was a quality that the original domesticators of the dog had selected for, or whether it had just come along with the tameness, as implied by Belyaev's hypothesis.
He found that the fox kits from Belyaev's domesticated stock did just as well as puppies in picking up cues from people about hidden food, even though they had almost no previous experience with humans. The tame kits performed much better at this task than the wild kits did. When dogs were developed from wolves, selection against fear and aggression "may have been sufficient to produce the unusual ability of dogs to use human communicative gestures," Dr. Hare wrote last year in the journal Current Biology.
In pratica, la tua dotta ipotesi ci porta alle seguenti considerazioni:
* Le bestie sono guidate dall'istinto.
* L'istinto è per definizione un comportamento ereditario innato, altrimenti sarebbe imprinting.
* L'uomo è una bestia, quindi è guidato anch'egli dall'istinto, solo vagamente limitato dalla ragione.
* Siccome l'istinto è un tratto ereditario, può essere opportunamente selezionato come suggerito dal simpatico Dmitri, con annesse conseguenze fisiologiche.
* E' dunque possibile selezionare un'intera popolazione di individui con determinate caratteristiche, inoltre:
* Data una determinata popolazione, sviluppatasi senza contatti con l'esterno, si può tranquillamente ipotizzare che sia caratterizzata da istinti frutto della selezione, o evoluzione.
* La definizione precedente coincide ahimé con quella di etnia.
* Quindi, i pregiudizi che associano etnie ad ipotetici comportamenti sono appena stati sdoganati dalla nostra ipotesi, che in realtà voleva giustificare lo Stato.
* Ma se l'ipotesi legittima lo Stato, legittima contemporaneamente anche il razzismo biologico, che quindi potrà essere adottato come policy di Stato, traendo legittimità dalla medesima premessa.
Oplà, hai inventato il nazismo, complimenti.
Oppure, volendo essere più contemporanei, si potrebbe dire che tutta questa grande ed improvvisa fretta di immigrare, integrare, mescolare, eccetera potrebbe avere, come dire, altre spiegazioni che non stiamo qui ad approfondire.
In questo caso non hai inventato il nazismo, bensì la... società multiculturale forzata. Strano, vero?
Badombe> They also started to have spotted coats, floppy ears, and curled tails...
Oppure si potrebbe parlare della misteriosa proliferazione dei metrosexual uomini sensibili del futuro...
Chi stanno addomesticando, e come? Quale sarà il destino dell'uomo ibrido? (curiosa scelta di parole, vero?)
Riposi tranquillo l'attento lettore, indagheremo anche su questo con l'opportuno megapost.
Concludiamo osservando: se la ragione dell'uomo è sufficiente a trascendere l'istinto, la tua ipotesi era inutile. Se invece l'ipotesi è attendibile, tenetevi il culo perché tra poco inizierà la festa, e quando capirete quale festa sarà un po' tardi.
Le risate... le grasse risate...
Domanda delle cento pistole: che abbia qualcosa a che spartire con la razza di oligarchi che si spostano in autoblu?
Te lo potrei dire, però poi ti dovrei uccidere!
===
nei miei principi etici compaiono i concetti di regole e legge che in maniera subconscia si riallacciano a quelli di ordine e punizione imposti dai miei genitori nella prima infanzia.
Quindi lo Stato non è in grado di difenderci dai predatori sadici sociopatici compulsivi che popolano i vicoli, ma solo dai predatori razionali e filosofi? Puttana miseria che risate!
lo stato funge da concentratore e catalizzatore di interessi particolaristici ed atomici spesso (molto) divergenti.con la sua opera di elaborazione dialettica, lo stato mira proprio alla convergenza di tali interessi per la produzione di un'unico atto( o volontà) che miri ad un beneficio generico e generalizzato il più possibile(chiaro che è utopistico accontentare tutti)che altrimenti sarebbe impossibile in un universo di di entità isolate e totalmente autonome.
Ancora con questa cagata pazzesca dell'isolamento, che fa il paio con l'homo economicus dell'altro thread.
ah, credevo fosse linucs il vice sceriffo con le allegre brigate rothschild, foxman, i socialisti e l'allegra compagnia di badombe
Sarebbero allegre se avessi capito il nesso tra queste strane entità.
!
e questo penso abbia un risvolto anche comportamentale in tutti noi (non solo in lucio dalla).
?
il fatto che si digiti su di un laptop, che invece di girar per boschi e foreste si usi il denaro per procacciarsi il nutrimento, che piuttosto che spulciarci ci dilunghiamo in elocubrazioni metafisiche non mi pare che produca un gap così vasto tra noi ed i poveri ed innocenti animali.
!!
questo viene alla luce specie se si fa un'analisi etologica dei fini ultimi e delle cause scatenanti dell'azione umana, e non dei suoi mezzi
Orbene, partiamo allora dalla tua ipotesi, traendone le dovute conseguenze.
Dmitri Belyaev
Dmitri Belyaev (1917-1985) - a Russian scientist, academician. In the 1950s Dmitri Belyaev and his team spent many years breeding the silver fox (Vulpes vulpes) and selecting only those individuals that showed the least fear of humans. Eventually, Belyaev's team selected only those that showed the most positive response to humans. He ended up with a population of foxes whose behavior and appearance was significantly changed. After about ten generations of controlled breeding, these foxes no longer showed any fear of humans and often wagged their tails and licked their human caretakers to show affection. They also started to have spotted coats, floppy ears, and curled tails. At the time, biologists were puzzled as to how dogs evolved to have different coats than wolves. They couldn't figure how dogs got those genes from wolves. (One never sees spotted, floppy-eared, gay-tailed wolves in wild populations.) Belyaev saw his foxes as a perfect opportunity to find out how this happened. He and his colleagues began performing tests on the animals. When they checked the adrenaline levels of the domesticated foxes, they found that they were significantly lower than normal. This is feasible, because foxes that are not afraid of humans are going to produce less adrenaline around them. This explains the foxes' tameness, but it doesn't really explain their multicolor coats. The scientists theorized that adrenaline shares a biochemical pathway with melanin, which controls pigment production.
Tame Silver Fox
Tame Silver Foxes are the results of nearly 50 years of experiments in Russia to domesticate the Silver Fox. Notably, the foxes did not only become more tame, but more dog-like as well: the new foxes lost their distinctive musky "fox smell", became more friendly with humans, put their ears down (like dogs), wagged their tails when happy and began to vocalize and bark like domesticated dogs. The breeding project was set up by Russian scientist Dmitri Belyaev, encouraged by the Communist Party of the time because of its link with the aim to control and improve the human condition.
Initial experiment
Scientists were interested by the topic of domestication, and how wolves were able to become tame, like dogs. They saw some retention of juvenile traits by adult dogs: both morphological ones such as skulls that were unusually broad for their length, and behavioural ones such as whining, barking and submissiveness.
Belyaev believed that the key factor selected for domestication of dogs was not size or reproduction, but behaviour; specifically amenability to domestication, or tamability. More than any other quality, Belyaev believed, tamability must have determined how well an animal would adapt to life among human beings. Because behavior is rooted in biology, selecting for tameness and against aggression means selecting for physiological changes in the systems that govern the body's hormones and neurochemicals.
Belyaev decided to test his theory by domesticating foxes; in particular the Russian Silver Fox. He placed a population of them in the same process of domestication, and he decided to submit this population to a strong selection pressure for inherent tameness.
The result is that Russian scientists now have a number of tame foxes which are fundamentally different in temperament and behaviour from their wild forebears. Some important changes in physiology and morphology are now visible, such as mottled or spotted colored fur.
Fast fox evolution
Belyaev chose to test his theory on the silver fox, a variant of the common red fox, because it is a social animal and is related to the dog. Though fur farmers had kept silver foxes for about 50 years, the foxes remained quite wild. Belyaev began his experiment in 1959 with 130 farm-bred silver foxes, using their tolerance of human contact as the sole criterion for choosing the parents of the next generation.
"The audacity of this experiment is difficult to overestimate," Dr. Fitch has written. "The selection process on dogs, horses, cattle or other species had occurred, mostly unconsciously, over thousands of years, and the idea that Belyaev's experiment might succeed in a human lifetime must have seemed bold indeed."
In fact, after only eight generations, foxes that would tolerate human presence became common in Belyaev's stock. Belyaev died in 1985, but his experiment was continued by his successor, Lyudmila N. Trut. The experiment did not become widely known outside Russia until 1999, when Dr. Trut published an article in American Scientist. She reported that after 40 years of the experiment, and the breeding of 45,000 foxes, a group of animals had emerged that were as tame and as eager to please as a dog.
As Belyaev had predicted, other changes appeared along with the tameness, even though they had not been selected for. The tame silver foxes had begun to show white patches on their fur, floppy ears, rolled tails and smaller skulls.
...There was far more to Belyaev's experiment than the production of tame foxes. He developed a parallel colony of vicious foxes, and he started domesticating other animals, like river otters and mink. Realizing that genetics can be better studied in smaller animals, Belyaev also started a study of rats, beginning with wild rats caught locally. His rat experiment was continued after his death by Irina Plyusnina. Siberian gray rats caught in the wild, bred separately for tameness and for ferocity, have developed these entirely different behaviors in only 60 or so generations.
The collection of species bred by Belyaev and his successors form an unparalleled resource for studying the process and genetics of domestication. In a recent visit to Novosibirsk, Dr. Brian Hare of the Planck Institute used the silver foxes to probe the unusual ability of dogs to understand human gestures.
If a person hides food and then points to the location with a steady gaze, dogs will instantly pick up on the cue, while animals like chimpanzees, with considerably larger brains, will not. Dr. Hare wanted to know if dogs' powerful rapport with humans was a quality that the original domesticators of the dog had selected for, or whether it had just come along with the tameness, as implied by Belyaev's hypothesis.
He found that the fox kits from Belyaev's domesticated stock did just as well as puppies in picking up cues from people about hidden food, even though they had almost no previous experience with humans. The tame kits performed much better at this task than the wild kits did. When dogs were developed from wolves, selection against fear and aggression "may have been sufficient to produce the unusual ability of dogs to use human communicative gestures," Dr. Hare wrote last year in the journal Current Biology.
In pratica, la tua dotta ipotesi ci porta alle seguenti considerazioni:
* Le bestie sono guidate dall'istinto.
* L'istinto è per definizione un comportamento ereditario innato, altrimenti sarebbe imprinting.
* L'uomo è una bestia, quindi è guidato anch'egli dall'istinto, solo vagamente limitato dalla ragione.
* Siccome l'istinto è un tratto ereditario, può essere opportunamente selezionato come suggerito dal simpatico Dmitri, con annesse conseguenze fisiologiche.
* E' dunque possibile selezionare un'intera popolazione di individui con determinate caratteristiche, inoltre:
* Data una determinata popolazione, sviluppatasi senza contatti con l'esterno, si può tranquillamente ipotizzare che sia caratterizzata da istinti frutto della selezione, o evoluzione.
* La definizione precedente coincide ahimé con quella di etnia.
* Quindi, i pregiudizi che associano etnie ad ipotetici comportamenti sono appena stati sdoganati dalla nostra ipotesi, che in realtà voleva giustificare lo Stato.
* Ma se l'ipotesi legittima lo Stato, legittima contemporaneamente anche il razzismo biologico, che quindi potrà essere adottato come policy di Stato, traendo legittimità dalla medesima premessa.
Oplà, hai inventato il nazismo, complimenti.
Oppure, volendo essere più contemporanei, si potrebbe dire che tutta questa grande ed improvvisa fretta di immigrare, integrare, mescolare, eccetera potrebbe avere, come dire, altre spiegazioni che non stiamo qui ad approfondire.
In questo caso non hai inventato il nazismo, bensì la... società multiculturale forzata. Strano, vero?
Badombe> They also started to have spotted coats, floppy ears, and curled tails...
Oppure si potrebbe parlare della misteriosa proliferazione dei metrosexual uomini sensibili del futuro...
Chi stanno addomesticando, e come? Quale sarà il destino dell'uomo ibrido? (curiosa scelta di parole, vero?)
Riposi tranquillo l'attento lettore, indagheremo anche su questo con l'opportuno megapost.
Concludiamo osservando: se la ragione dell'uomo è sufficiente a trascendere l'istinto, la tua ipotesi era inutile. Se invece l'ipotesi è attendibile, tenetevi il culo perché tra poco inizierà la festa, e quando capirete quale festa sarà un po' tardi.
Le risate... le grasse risate...
Domanda delle cento pistole: che abbia qualcosa a che spartire con la razza di oligarchi che si spostano in autoblu?
Te lo potrei dire, però poi ti dovrei uccidere!
===
nei miei principi etici compaiono i concetti di regole e legge che in maniera subconscia si riallacciano a quelli di ordine e punizione imposti dai miei genitori nella prima infanzia.
Quindi lo Stato non è in grado di difenderci dai predatori sadici sociopatici compulsivi che popolano i vicoli, ma solo dai predatori razionali e filosofi? Puttana miseria che risate!
lo stato funge da concentratore e catalizzatore di interessi particolaristici ed atomici spesso (molto) divergenti.con la sua opera di elaborazione dialettica, lo stato mira proprio alla convergenza di tali interessi per la produzione di un'unico atto( o volontà) che miri ad un beneficio generico e generalizzato il più possibile(chiaro che è utopistico accontentare tutti)che altrimenti sarebbe impossibile in un universo di di entità isolate e totalmente autonome.
Ancora con questa cagata pazzesca dell'isolamento, che fa il paio con l'homo economicus dell'altro thread.
ah, credevo fosse linucs il vice sceriffo con le allegre brigate rothschild, foxman, i socialisti e l'allegra compagnia di badombe
Sarebbero allegre se avessi capito il nesso tra queste strane entità.
Messaggio orinale: https://old.luogocomune.net/site/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=6&topic_id=2476&post_id=67046